Saving one of the four shots of the same group photo taken minutes apart

Kinda blew it...trying to salvage group photo. Still checking but hoping for someone who has done the same mistake and came up smelling like roses - lol.

I have 4 kicks at the can to develop HP5 plus in replenished Xtol for 4x5 negatives taken using a Crown Graphic Optar 135mm. The shutter was at 1/100 but the aperture was at f4.7 and was supposed to be at f16 so I blew the shots but now I am thinking of my options for developing the negatives so that I develop one at a time and use the information I get from the first negative to modify the development times and maybe agitation of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th negatives.

I'm thinking of developing at 70 degrees for 8 minutes for the first negative which would be about a 30% reduction from Kodak's recommendation. I'd look at the negative and make adjustments for the 2nd negative and then keep going to the next negative and look at the results and repeat the process..

I know I can reduce the time of development,agitation, and temperature but I looked for a post that I read somewhere regarding the first two minutes of the development cycle and was thinking of changing that to try and control the highlights. If most of the development of the negative gets done in the first 2 minutes then because I way overexposed, the highlights will be blown at the beginning of the development cycle.

Is it true that a large part of the development of a negative is done in the first 2 minutes? If so, is my only recourse stand development?

Thanks

HP5 has a very long straight line and over exposing 3 1/2 stops won't hit the shoulder unless the subject was a very long SBR. All you have done is push everything up the slope. You haven't altered the slope angle(contrast).
Reducing dev will maybe pull it back down the slope a stop but it will also reduce the negative CI. i.e. reduce contrast.

Note: negative contrast is the steepness of the slope and not how far up the slope the exposure is placed. You haven't increased contrast by over exposing, you will have just created a more dense negative than normal.

Also, the point of reduced development is to contain a long SBR and not over exposure. Thye are not the same thing.

Hi RobC

Thanks for teaching me that.

Most modern films have a generic response to changes in development time as shown in the attatchment. That lens, when used wide open, will have less contrast than when used at f16, therefore you may need to increase development time somewhat. This depends on the printing paper you are planning on using. In terms of your over-exposure, as long as the highlights are off the shoulder the negative may be printable to acceptable quality. When you print the pictures so the whites are white and blacks are black, you may notice that middle gray is too bright. That would be the result of the hight values compressed on the shoulder which was determined at the time of exposure.

Hi ic-racer

Thanks for the info about the contrast the lens gives at f4.7 as opposed to f16. I'm glad I asked the question...now I have an idea of where I'm going with this...I may do the first negative tonight and sleep on it before moving on to the second one!

firefli said:

Hi ic-racer

Thanks for the info about the contrast the lens gives at f4.7 as opposed to f16. I'm glad I asked the question...now I have an idea of where I'm going with this...I may do the first negative tonight and sleep on it before moving on to the second one!

Click to expand...

I think you will need to actually print it before deciding how good or bad it is becasue it may look way too dense but actually print OK. Obviously you can expect to get much longer print time for it. I'd start with your normal dev and go from there.

Hi RobC

Ok, I'm going to check out the contact printing section to make prints of the negative. I imagine that the remaining negatives can stay undeveloped for at least a month or two? I'd like to get an enlarger...but only time and money will tell...they do not appear to be super abundant. Thanks for clarifying the process for me. I will still develop one negative using the standard developing times to see whether the depth of field is aligned properly, If I am really lucky, the area in focus will cover most of the people in the image, but I don't think 15 feet was far enough away to actually do that. Learned a few things though - Thanks

As Rob said, an overexposure by four stops is usually not the end of the world, modern film can handle this pretty well. Here is a nice test with overexposed colour negative film, black and white negative film isn't that much different in this regard.

There are a few things you may want to consider, though, before you start developing these negs:

1. Pull development not only reduces overall density of your negs, it also reduces contrast, which can make your prints look really ugly. Do this only if nothing else works.
2. Some developers produce very pronounced shoulders, and given your level of overexposure, most of your subject matter may end up in the shoulder regions, which again means much reduced contrast. Stay away from any developer which states "compensating", "controlled highlights", "two-bath" or "high acutance" in its description.
3. There is no need to waste a single one of these four negs, because you could create many more with test exposures. Recreate a lighting situation similar to what you have, put a stuffed animal or whatever into that scene, take test exposures which you then develop and print until you are happy with the results.

BTW there are some old ultra fine grain developers which have fallen out of favour because they lose two or three stops of speed .... these could be exactly what you need right now. Formulary sells some of them prepackaged: D-23, D-25. You could also play with a Microdol replacement by adding 30 g/l Sodium Chloride to D-23.

I do not have much experience on very overexposed negatives (more than 2 stops), but as many people said, modern black and white material is incredibly flexible and luckily this applies especially on the side of overexposure. However, in your particular case I would be more concerned about the rather big difference in depth of field at f4.7, compared to f16, which might have caused unsharp images. But the only way to find out is to develop and see. This might not be an issue if the people in the group photo were all aligned on the same line.

firefli,

As others have said, your extra exposure will likely not hurt, especially if you are printing optically (and you should be, since this is APUG )

I have some negatives that proper proof almost blank white, but print just fine. They were overexposed (a lot) and developed normally.

I second rudeofus' suggestion to use a slower working developer. D-23 is easy to mix up and works really well. Of course, you'd have to establish a normal developing time by running tests first. I've never used Xtol, so no help there.

If you really have four shots to play with and you know one is likely not a "keeper," then start with that one. Develop in normally and print. You may be surprised how great the shadow detail is!

Best,

Doremus

hi firefli

sounds like fun !
i regularly over expose my film by 3 or 4 stops
and i process it in a strange brew of dektol and caffenol C.
i don't recommend you do that, but if you want to
experiment before you actually process the film that means something
to you, family and friends, i would take the same film you used
expose it the same exact way ( at f4.7 instead of f16 )
and develop it in whatever slurry of developer using whatever agitation scheme you
decide might be good for you.

if you have experience with caffenol c and / or using print developer ( dektol or ansco 130 )
you might consider using them to subdue your over exposed film ...
again i don't suggest you do this, but what i do is :

mix stock of either ansco 130 or dektol ( i used a130 for years, now i use dektol because my funds are reduced )
dilute the print developer to about 1:8ish
also mix a batch of caffenol c, you can eyeball measure it, use teaspoons a scale, its all good and will work fine )
( i am usually a bit heavy on all my componants when i eyeball measure noproblems )
add a splash of your print developer (straight, undilute ) in there .. a splash is random amount, i know ..
if you need to measure it, its about 15-20cc / L of caffenol c ...

when you develop your film ...
you use the dektol first, 1:8 for about 4 mins ...
if you are processing rolls, agitate normally ( 1 full min,and 10 sec/min ) sheets just shuffle hangers 8 and then 2 just like you would normally do ...
at 4 mins you ditch the print developer .. and put the caffenol c in ...
if you are processinr rolls, agitate continuously ... 4x5 and sheets same thing just shuffle ... another 4 mins ..

in the end, the total development ( between both developers ) is 8 mins ..
you might have to fiddle with the first dilution and time to meet your needs,
i like my film a little beefy since i like to contact print, but who knows, maybe you do too ?

good luck with your processing!
and remember to do a dry run with sheets that mean nothing to you but a test subject
before you do anything with the real-film it will save you stress in the end ..

john

Thanks everyone for all the good suggestions. This feels like it will be a lot of fun. I might mull this over a little bit seeing that you all have interesting options...I may try them all!

Another option would be to develop one negative with your normal developer and development scheme, test print it, and if it is so dense as to be challenging to print, you could also brew up a batch of farmers' reducer and bleach it down a bit. Since you have four versions of the same negative, you've got room to experiment to figure out how much is right.

Hi

Just a couple of questions since I have to get some more film ( the 4 overexposed negatives happened to be the last of the bunch - lol). I'm getting pf130 because I need it for contact printing, also getting foma fomalux 312 5x7 sheets, kodak fixer,and more hp5plus. Will I be ok using a water stop bath? That is what I usually do when developing HP5+ with Xtol. I like the idea of staying with Xtol (using replenished) to try and process the overexposed negatives, but also will use the pf130 as a fallback plan and if needed will go with d-23 or d-25 after that.

How important is the stop bath step when developing prints? Any suggestions or modifications to the plan...

Thank you for your help - greatly appreciated :munch:

you should always use proper stop bath.

Taken from an article written by Michael Gudzinowicz 1995

Stop Bath
Compared to a water rinse, a dilute acidic stop bath will stop development very rapidly (15 sec) due to the pH change and rapid tunneling of protons compared, to a water bath where developer diffusion takes minutes (the basis of water bath development).
The acid stop minimizes developer oxidation in fixers with dissolved silver, which prevents soluble silver reduction and the formation of dichroic fog. Likewise, the pH change retards aerial oxidation of the developer and oxidation of fixer in the emulsion by radicals generated from the developer, which degrades fixer complexes to partially oxidized insoluble products which stain films and papers, and eventually cause fading and sulfiding. Also, acid helps to maintain the pH of the fixer in a region where it's stable, and where the hardeners are effective and don't precipitate.
In addition, the use of a stop bath rather than water reduces the osmotic shock and resultant swelling of the emulsion which is seen when emulsions with high solute concentrations are placed into water, and thereby may reduce grain clumping.

Click to expand...

hi firefli :

some people use stop bath,
i haven't since about 1988 ... YMMV


good luck !
john

Hi,

With the arrival of pf130, I contact printed using a different group photo instead of developing the 4 negatives I started the thread with - go figure - the temptation to do that was too great. 25 seconds using an incandescent 60w light bulb with a paper towel underneath to lengthen the exposure time for fomalux 312, 1 part pf130 and two parts water for about 2 minutes 20 seconds, and a homemade stop bath (3 parts water to 2 parts vinegar). I counted the seconds out loud to contact print and develop and need a more reliable measuring stick but it still came out pretty well.

Even though the group photos don't really work with 4x5 prints (everyone is too small), I think portraits will become something I can pursue.

Thanks again for your help

RobC said:

HP5 has a very long straight line and over exposing 3 1/2 stops won't hit the shoulder unless the subject was a very long SBR. All you have done is push everything up the slope. You haven't altered the slope angle(contrast).
Reducing dev will maybe pull it back down the slope a stop but it will also reduce the negative CI. i.e. reduce contrast.

Note: negative contrast is the steepness of the slope and not how far up the slope the exposure is placed. You haven't increased contrast by over exposing, you will have just created a more dense negative than normal.

Also, the point of reduced development is to contain a long SBR and not over exposure. Thye are not the same thing.

Click to expand...

Spot on!

Doremus Scudder said:

firefli,

As others have said, your extra exposure will likely not hurt, especially if you are printing optically (and you should be, since this is APUG )

I have some negatives that proper proof almost blank white, but print just fine. They were overexposed (a lot) and developed normally.

I second rudeofus' suggestion to use a slower working developer. D-23 is easy to mix up and works really well. Of course, you'd have to establish a normal developing time by running tests first. I've never used Xtol, so no help there.

If you really have four shots to play with and you know one is likely not a "keeper," then start with that one. Develop in normally and print. You may be surprised how great the shadow detail is!

Best,

Doremus

Click to expand...

after reading all answes,I agree;develop normally and adjust contrast with printing with a fitting grade of paper and enjoy the shadow detail!

What does SBR stand for?

absolutedesmond said:

What does SBR stand for?

Click to expand...

Subject Brightness Range

7 stop range is about normal. 10 stop range maybe a landscape with shadows and bright clouds.

Thanks!

firefli said:

Hi,

With the arrival of pf130, I contact printed using a different group photo instead of developing the 4 negatives I started the thread with - go figure - the temptation to do that was too great. 25 seconds using an incandescent 60w light bulb with a paper towel underneath to lengthen the exposure time for fomalux 312, 1 part pf130 and two parts water for about 2 minutes 20 seconds, and a homemade stop bath (3 parts water to 2 parts vinegar). I counted the seconds out loud to contact print and develop and need a more reliable measuring stick but it still came out pretty well.

Even though the group photos don't really work with 4x5 prints (everyone is too small), I think portraits will become something I can pursue.

Thanks again for your help

Click to expand...

excellent !
glad to hear you are able to get images our of some of your negatives.
i have many negatives that are so dense you can't see through them even with a bright light
i contact print them on regular olde RC paper with an extremely bright light ( 300watts).
the prints that come out of those negatives have a feeling to them that well exposed / normally exposed
film can't come close to. i know your film isn't THAT dense, but still, i hope you can pull things out of your
negatives you can't normally extract.
good luck !
john