Same tired 4x5 tank question - possible solution. Need your input

[moltogordo]

Same tired
old thing but I have an idea . . . . 4x5 Doran/Yankee tank . . . usual problems

Possible solution. Drill a hole in the bottom corner of the tank, insert 3 feet of aquarium tubing, cement it in, attach aquarium pump for intermittent, continuous, or any other type of agitation timetable you want. I'm sure it would work and probably eliminate uneven development . . .

BUT​

I'm wondering about the aeration factor itself, and the effect on the developer. Any ideas before I start drilling?

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Sounds like you're going for a nitrogen burst system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQy0xQoULro

 

[moltogordo]

Not quite, but the video answers my question - severe oxidation of developer. Back to the drawing board.

 

[moltogordo]

Not quite, but the video answers my question - severe oxidation of developer. Back to the drawing board.

Love to ante up, but just can't afford it. First year on pension.

 

[snapguy]

why

And just why are you getting uneven development? I go back far enough to when zillions of photogs souped their stuff in 4x5 tanks with no problems. With 35mm, 120, 4x5 film and no hassle.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

The system of reminds me of bathers farting in a tub.

 

[Rick A]

The system of reminds me of bathers farting in a tub.

That would be a Cajun bubble bath.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Possible solution

That would be a Cajun bubble bath.

So I wonder if one can eat something gassy then bath in the dark in your favorite developer to process your film?

 

[moltogordo]

And just why are you getting uneven development? I go back far enough to when zillions of photogs souped their stuff in 4x5 tanks with no problems. With 35mm, 120, 4x5 film and no hassle.

Sometimes do and sometimes don't - it's a good question and the answer is that I'm sometimes sloppy.

The other thing, farting jokes aside, is I'm an intensely curious guy, and when I'm trying to solve a problem I try to carry it through. I simply WANT to develop/invent/modify or create a simple, cheap and foolproof 4x5 developing system that allows inverted agitation for the casual user. Not just me, but for every other klutz out there.

I'm perfectly capable of tray developing, taco developing, loading Yankee tanks, and the whole gamut. And I've done it.

But I see easy developing of sheet film, comparable to loading and using a regular tank with 35mm or rollfilm, as a problem to be solved, and an obstacle to many getting into 4x5. The amount of threads devoted to this topic in this forum and many others shows it's not just me, but many others.

Simply looking for a solution that won't cost as much as a used Jobo/Tank reel system that goes for $300 bills on EvilBay.

That's all.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Gaseous burst systems are notorious for the amount of effort required to get a perfectly even distribution of rising bubbles. It's likely not as easy as you may think.

I've gone so far as to contact California Stainless, an OEM supplier for the Arkay line of processing equipment, and was told they have discontinued their 4-liter burst systems due in part to the difficulty in achieving clean results with such a small volume. Only the larger systems are (or were) still available.

There is a hard-to-find Kodak publication that covers in some detail the design characteristics and performance requirements of a gaseous burst system, right down to plenum patterns and air hole sizes.*

I have a full PDF copy of that pamphlet at home somewhere. If no one following along posts a copy before this evening, I'll try to do so. It's worth a read.

[Edit: Here's the pamphlet. It's Kodak Publication No. E-57 rev. C, dated 12/85.]

Gaseous-Burst Agitation in Processing

Ken

* See the section Customized Gas Distributors on page 6.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Maybe just modify the process, not the equipment?

Simply looking for a solution that won't cost as much as a used Jobo/Tank reel system that goes for $300 bills on EvilBay.

That's all.

Have you tried pre-wetting your film? I use Yankee Agitanks and It's OK. Mine holds 12 sheets. Maybe just load 6 and have more space between the sheets? The 12 sheets are packed pretty tight in the tank. The last solution is possibly diluting the developer so you have more processing time which can help. Good luck to you. Shooting 4x5 is expensive and time consuming. I wouldn't want to ruin any film with uneven development.

 

[Saganich]

How about a magnetic stirrer? I use one for mixing chemicals. Perhaps it could be used as an agitator. You could put a stainless tank on one using a small stir bar to lightly stir for development and turn it off and on at will or make a timer. The only issue would is bar would have to clear the film in the bottom of the tank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stirrer

 

[moltogordo]

Have you tried pre-wetting your film? I use Yankee Agitanks and It's OK. Mine holds 12 sheets. Maybe just load 6 and have more space between the sheets? The 12 sheets are packed pretty tight in the tank. The last solution is possibly diluting the developer so you have more processing time which can help. Good luck to you. Shooting 4x5 is expensive and time consuming. I wouldn't want to ruin any film with uneven development.

Thanks! Yes, what I do when using the tank is loading only 6 sheets. It helps a lot - I also use very dilute developer (1:71 or 1:90 HC110) which also helps - with 1:71 I get about a 14 minute development time, about 19 with 1:90 with HP5 exposed at ISO 400. This also helps.

I also take two identical exposures of each shot, and develop only one to start with. If the film is fine, then I'll experiment with the other, perhaps using a different developer, tray develop, or whatever. I've always bracketed development rather than exposure in LF.

One day though, a better mousetrap!

 

[moltogordo]

How about a magnetic stirrer? I use one for mixing chemicals. Perhaps it could be used as an agitator. You could put a stainless tank on one using a small stir bar to lightly stir for development and turn it off and on at will or make a timer. The only issue would is bar would have to clear the film in the bottom of the tank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_stirrer

Really interesting idea!!

 

[StephenT]

I use Patterson System4 tanks (the three 35mm reel capacity one - about 825ml of solution) and simply insert two 4x5 sheets opposite each other. They have never overlapped. Emulsion side out, of course. I may have to rinse each film a little bit if the anti halation coating is not completely gone after processing. Works, for me anyway, a lot better than the taco method.

 

[EdSawyer]

Nikor stainless 4x5 tank.

 

[Neal]

Dear moltogordo,

I used to seal my Yankee tank with electric tape, cover the top with my hand, and do complete inversions. It helped. Once I started with Jobo tanks I never used the Yankee again.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

 

[MartinP]

If the tank and the film-holder are functional then how about 3D-printing a lid with a fitting for a soft gasket? A lab-equipment supplier should have neoprene tube (or similar) to use a a gasket material.

Edit: I'm assuming the lid is a similar style to the HD-polythene moulding one on my Combi-Plan tank which I don't use anymore. Instead, I use the tank body as a 'deep tank' in the dark with a few random household containers for stop, fix and wash OR for a couple of sheets I just use a slosher.

 

[ParkerSmithPhoto]

Have you tried any of the developers that work well with minimal agitation, such as Beutler's or Barry Thornton 2 bath? With BTTB, once I pour in the B bath, I give it five turns and then let it stand for 4 minutes. Never get any streaks on 120 film.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

That's one think I hate about Yankee Agitanks

Dear moltogordo,

I used to seal my Yankee tank with electric tape, cover the top with my hand, and do complete inversions. It helped. Once I started with Jobo tanks I never used the Yankee again.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

I can't do complete inversions.

 

[fotch]

Nikor stainless 4x5 tank.

I heard the Nikor tanks work pretty good. Or, get some 4x5 hangs and tanks.

 

[Paul Howell]

I have a Yankee tank that I have used in the past when traveling. I found the issue of uneven development to be related to agitation and how long it takes to drain the tank. I timed how long it took to drain the tank vs. how long it took to fill, to make matters worse I was filling the tank in the dark with the lid off by add the developer then putting the lid on then in the light draining the tank with the lid on, so the top half of the negative facing away from the angle of the tank while draining got were lighter than the top 1/2 closest to the angle of the tank while draining. As already mentioned I would seal the tank with tape then hold my hand over the fill spout for inversion agitation.

I also found that loading the tank with a full number of sheets was too many sheets for the capacity of the tank, not enough developer so I only put in 4 to 6 sheets at a time.


I got best results a divided developer like Diafine or divided D 76, with Tri-x I got very good results with Divided D 76 shot at 200, 3 mints in A then 3 in B. just swishing the tank around I found enough agitation.

 

[moltogordo]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Ken, I got that PDF file.

Thanks - I'll keep you informed re my "inventing!"

 

[jimjm]

Any problems I had with uneven development, working in the dark for long periods and using large amounts of developer were resolved when I started using BTZS tubes for 4x5.

I was previously using the dip & dunk method (in the dark) with open tanks and film hangers, as that gave me the best results for even development of multiple sheets without risk of damage or scratching. Kinda messy, though and you have to use the same amount of developer to fill the tank for 1 sheet or 6 sheets.

With the tubes, lights are off when loading the film, but room lights are on for rest of development and I use a dim safelight for stop bath and fixing steps. One sheet per tube only takes a small amount of developer and I can vary development times for each sheet, if needed.

I've heard of folks also making their own tubes and caps from PVC pipe, for a less expensive alternative.

 

[moltogordo]

Thanks for all the input, guys. Ken, I got that PDF file.

Thanks - I'll keep you informed re my "inventing!"