Salvaging fogged paper

Melvin J Bramley · Feb 12, 2023

Last year i purchased a considerable amount of old printing papers in sizes from 8 x 10 to 16 x 20.
The manufacturers were many and included Ilford , Kodak, Zone VI and others.
My first foray into printing with the Ilford paper gave mixed but generally good results.
So far all the Kodak paper , RC or fibre is badly fogged.
The Forte paper is slightly fogged as are over 1000 sheets of Agfa RC satin, multi contrast.
As you can imagine I would dearly like to salvage the Agfa paper.
Just how much will benzotriazole resurrect my paper?
When do we reach a point where the fog is too much?

FWIW.
The Ilford products , even Ilford graded Ilfobrom tested the best .
With this in mind I dug out a partially used package of 40 year old Ilfomar ; it tested good!
Hardly scientific and I do not yet know how good the blacks will be; but blacks are much easier to salvage.

glbeas · Feb 13, 2023

From what Ive heard fogged papers are still good for lith printing.

Molli · Feb 13, 2023

The more Benzotriazole needed, the slower the paper's speed becomes. If you find yourself using more than 5-10ml of a 1% solution, consider over exposing by a stop under the enlarger so you can pull the print at the 2min. mark whilst still getting your blacks. If the whites are still fogged, give your print a dip in some Farmer's Reducer (aka Liquid Sunshine)
Solution A: 37.5g Potassium Ferricyanide
500ml Water.

Solution B: 480g Sodium Thiosulphate
Water to make 2 Litres.

For use on prints, add 3ml Solution A to 12ml Solution B plus Water to make 1 Litre.

You want it that dilute because it works quickly!

bernard_L · Feb 13, 2023

Molli said:
The more Benzotriazole needed, the slower the paper's speed becomes. If you find yourself using more than 5-10ml of a 1% solution, consider over exposing by a stop under the enlarger so you can pull the print at the 2min. mark whilst still getting your blacks. If the whites are still fogged, give your print a dip in some Farmer's Reducer (aka Liquid Sunshine)
Solution A: 37.5g Potassium Ferricyanide
500ml Water.

Solution B: 480g Sodium Thiosulphate
Water to make 2 Litres.

For use on prints, add 3ml Solution A to 12ml Solution B plus Water to make 1 Litre.

You want it that dilute because it works quickly!

+1 for either (benzotriazole, Farmer's). As nioted above, armer's reducer is even more effective than BTAZ.

Except wen using benzotriazole, I would not go by a hard rule as "add one stop". First add BTAZ until the unexposed paper develops to white (or reasonably close). You may need to go up to 30ml of 1% BTAZ per litre of working developer. You will notice that the induction time is longer. Develop for no less than 6x the induction time. From then on that is your developer, do your test strips, and the exposure is whatever it takes to make a pleasing print.

That reducer is non-rehalogenating, so there is no "undo" (as with a rehalogenating reducer). And the reducer continues to act for a short while after you pull the print out and start washing it. Better go in several small steps. Dilute enough that treatment is counted in 10's of seconds, not in seconds.

In my experience, even before fog is a noticeable, the first effect of ageing is loss of general contrast. Farmer's reducer can restore some sparkle in the highlights. And Selenium toner add depth in the dark tones.

Don_ih · Feb 13, 2023

Melvin J Bramley said:
all the Kodak paper , RC or fibre is badly fogged.
The Forte paper is slightly fogged as are over 1000 sheets of Agfa RC satin, multi contrast.

The Kodak paper likely can't be saved with either benzo or reducer. It fogs in a mottled way, so you can't get an even print out of it.
The Forte and Agfa paper will probably respond well, although I'm doubtful of the Agfa.
Any paper that was made with an incorporated developer to increase its speed tends to not only fog but also lose its ability to produce good contrast. And you can't lith print with such papers.

Rick A · Feb 13, 2023

I use old paper for carbon transfer prints. A couple minute soak in fixer to keep if white and then I use the RC for tissue and FB for final support.

faberryman · Feb 13, 2023

I guess I am profligate. I use unexpired film, paper, and chemicals. I have never had anyone give me any expired materials, and I do not actively search them out. There are enough variables in photography for me; I do not need more.

Rick A's use of fixed-out expired fiber base paper for carbon prints is a good one.

Patrick Robert James · Feb 13, 2023

I have a huge pile of old foggy paper. Some can lith as others have already mentioned and that is a legitimate use for them. Some are just crap. I've given a couple boxes to a friend who is a lith nut and he has made some beautiful prints from them. A few weeks ago I decided to take the crappy ones and start fixing them out at the end of my darkroom sessions. I'll use them for other things then. I am curious to see what a cyanotype looks like on them for example.

You can also make lumen prints from old paper. Those can be quite nice if you are into that sort of thing.

Don_ih · Feb 13, 2023

Patrick Robert James said:
You can also make lumen prints from old paper.

I always get disappointed by lumen prints. Oddly enough, though, they always look better scanned.

You can also do chemigrams with foggy paper - even completely fogged paper. Chemigrams are pretty much putting a sealant on the emulsion and then scratching it and putting it in developer and then fixer, maybe scratching some more, or waiting for the sealant to partially dissolve in the dev. You can get interesting abstract images.

You can also get total crap.

MattKing · Feb 13, 2023

Don't use it right now.
Use some fresh paper to dial in your process and procedure.
Then you can go back to experimenting with the fogged stuff - with a good new paper reference, it is much easier to figure out what is needed to use the old stuff.

pentaxuser · Feb 13, 2023

I'd echo Matt's advice but once you gain experience with fresh paper, have a look at several videos by the same presenter on producing OK prints with fogged paper

Unfortunately I cannot remember his name or the name of the videos so a search is required All I can remember is that he wasn't from N America and I have a strong feeling he was one of those Europeans whose command of the English language is absolutely excellent. Oh, one of the videos involved a picture of a boat with a white hull in a fairly crowded harbour with high building around it

Best of luck in finding him

pentaxuser

MattKing · Feb 13, 2023

pentaxuser said:
I'd echo Matt's advice but once you gain experience with fresh paper, have a look at several videos by the same presenter on producing OK prints with fogged paper

Unfortunately I cannot remember his name or the name of the videos so a search is required All I can remember is that he wasn't from N America and I have a strong feeling he was one of those Europeans whose command of the English language is absolutely excellent. Oh, one of the videos involved a picture of a boat with a white hull in a fairly crowded harbour with high building around it

Best of luck in finding him

pentaxuser

Can we say that your memory of the presenter is a bit "foggy"?

Marcelo Paniagua · Feb 13, 2023

I remember using fogged paper with scenes that where more contrasty that I liked.

Melvin J Bramley · Feb 13, 2023

The paper I have fogs to different degrees.
The worst is almost paper black but with mottles.
The best produces not so good but usable highlights.
The comment on developer incorporated papers is well taken; thanks.
Is there any use for the many sheets of grey/ gray highlights in a printing paper?
If so , I have deal for you!!

Don_ih · Feb 14, 2023

Melvin J Bramley said:
Is there any use for the many sheets of grey/ gray highlights in a printing paper?

Only if that fog grey is what you'd consider a highlight tone. Once the fog gets close to being a midtone, there's no normal use for the paper. However, it may still lith.

IMetodiev · Feb 23, 2023

I've found that once it's fogged you can't get the proper tonal values, even if you do get rid of the gray with Farmers or benzo. I've allocated my fogged stash to alternative processes, lumen prints, chemigrams and such. May you have better luck!

Melvin J Bramley · May 24, 2023

MattKing said:
Don't use it right now.
Use some fresh paper to dial in your process and procedure.
Then you can go back to experimenting with the fogged stuff - with a good new paper reference, it is much easier to figure out what is needed to use the old stuff.

After a frustrating darkroom session I have to agree with your statement!
Perhaps I mixed a potent mixture of BTZ but after 30ml/ltr had some result I mixed 60ml/ltr and my developer exhausted quickly even with test strips!

I only persevere as i have hundreds of sheets of Agfa and Kodak RC that I would like to make use of.
Thankfully the Ilford paper of similar age is alive an well!
Developer incorporated paper , I see, does not live long.

Buzz-01 · May 25, 2023

In my experience fogged Agfa Multicontrast MCP RC works pretty nice for lith printing. Using Moersch EasyLith it produces quite nice results.
(Multicontrast MCC FB is even nicer, probably my favourite paper for lith)

Salvaging fogged paper

Melvin J Bramley

glbeas

Molli

bernard_L

Don_ih

Rick A

faberryman

Patrick Robert James

Don_ih

MattKing

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pentaxuser

MattKing

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Marcelo Paniagua

Melvin J Bramley

Don_ih

IMetodiev

Melvin J Bramley

Buzz-01

Salvaging fogged paper

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