Salted print vs handmade POP paper

Mainecoonmaniac · May 24, 2018

I made salt prints before and it's a fun process. I've seen some POP silver prints and I wonder is it worth the trouble of diving into making gelatin POP paper. Thanks in advance!

Peter Schrager · May 24, 2018

Try ziatype..its a printing out process
Lots of fun and easy..well easy after I just finished a workshop...
I've also have done pop collodion...prints...
More work but definitely an interesting process
Extremely stable...
There are always nuances for each process
My sincere advice is to spend the money on a workshop...saves time and $$ plus you might actually know something about the process
I'm available for private tutorials

nmp · May 25, 2018

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I made salt prints before and it's a fun process. I've seen some POP silver prints and I wonder is it worth the trouble of diving into making gelatin POP paper. Thanks in advance!

After I get thru my remaining stash of the Centennial POP, I am seriously thinking about trying my hand at making my own as well. I am very happy with what I am getting with this paper (see the alternative process link at he bottom for some examples) in tonality, color, and the texture - the latter probably harder to mimic unless some type of commercial baryta paper is used. From reading various sources (for example https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/POP/pop.html) it seems to be similar to emulsion making except you do not have to worry about removing excess silver nitrate (which is actually required) by having to do noodle-washing. It is definitely much more involved process than the plain salt print. I am a little bit hesitant thinking about trying to coat hot/warm sensitizer - could be a mess. Perhaps Albumen print would be a logical next process before diving into POP.

If you decide to indulge, please do keep us posted.

:Niranjan.

Addendum/Correction: I am sure someone would have pointed this out, but noodle-washing is more for removing the sodium salts as the emulsion recipes would not have called for use of excess silver in the first place.

removed account4 · May 25, 2018

denise ross has a bunch of stuff about making your own
http://thelightfarm.com/cgi-bin/htmlsectiongen.py?chapter=POPBasics
seems pretty straight forward ..

Mainecoonmaniac · May 25, 2018

Peter Schrager said:
Try ziatype..its a printing out process
Lots of fun and easy..well easy after I just finished a workshop...
I've also have done pop collodion...prints...
More work but definitely an interesting process
Extremely stable...
There are always nuances for each process
My sincere advice is to spend the money on a workshop...saves time and $$ plus you might actually know something about the process
I'm available for private tutorials

I love Ziatypes. I've been doing them for over a year now. It's sure expensive though. I love checking the exposure with a split back contact printer. I

Mainecoonmaniac · May 25, 2018

nmp said:
If you decide to indulge, please do keep us posted.

:Niranjan.

Addendum/Correction: I am sure someone would have pointed this out, but noodle-washing is more for removing the sodium salts as the emulsion recipes would not have called for use of excess silver in the first place.

Will do. After some investigation of the process involved, It's much more labor-intensive than I thought. I think I'll play with salt printing for a bit before diving in.

Peter Schrager · May 25, 2018

pop collodion is not that expensive...mark Osterman says it is the most stable process
I saw Atget prints from the turn of the century which looked brand new...you will need uncoated baryta paper

Fotokunst · Jun 4, 2018

I make POP paper all of the time for my contact sheets, the way that I do is very similar to a salt or a albumen print and doesn't have to be done in a dark room. Basically, I mix gelatin or some other collagen based product like rabbit glue or fish glue with a 10% salt water, apply it to the paper and let it dry. Afterward, I add silver nitrate mixed with water to the paper (I usually tape out 6x6 squares and only sensitize within them, so that my photographs have borders and the whole page doesn't turn black outside of the photos), let that dry and then put my negatives on top and put it out in the sun for about 6-8 minutes.

If you're interested in the chemistry here, basically the salt reacts with the silver nitrate to form silver chloride, which is light sensitive. The gelatin serves the same purpose as albumen in an albumen print and gum arabic in a gum bichromate print, to hold the components on top of the paper while keeping them from absorbing into the paper. The difference is that gelatin is a better binder and doesn't cause yellowing like albumen.

removed account4 · Jun 4, 2018

Peter Schrager said:
pop collodion is not that expensive...mark Osterman says it is the most stable process
I saw Atget prints from the turn of the century which looked brand new...you will need uncoated baryta paper

atget printed on aristotypes ( collodion chloride )?
too cool !

Fotokunst said:
I make POP paper all of the time for my contact sheets, the way that I do is very similar to a salt or a albumen print and doesn't have to be done in a dark room. Basically, I mix gelatin or some other collagen based product like rabbit glue or fish glue with a 10% salt water, apply it to the paper and let it dry. Afterward, I add silver nitrate mixed with water to the paper (I usually tape out 6x6 squares and only sensitize within them, so that my photographs have borders and the whole page doesn't turn black outside of the photos), let that dry and then put my negatives on top and put it out in the sun for about 6-8 minutes.

If you're interested in the chemistry here, basically the salt reacts with the silver nitrate to form silver chloride, which is light sensitive. The gelatin serves the same purpose as albumen in an albumen print and gum arabic in a gum bichromate print, to hold the components on top of the paper while keeping them from absorbing into the paper. The difference is that gelatin is a better binder and doesn't cause yellowing like albumen.

hi Fotokunst !

10% silver nitrate ?
do you fix your prints ? do you wash them ? thanks !

john

sorry to grill you for particulars !

Herzeleid · Jun 4, 2018

Fotokunst said:
I make POP paper all of the time for my contact sheets, the way that I do is very similar to a salt or a albumen print and doesn't have to be done in a dark room. Basically, I mix gelatin or some other collagen based product like rabbit glue or fish glue with a 10% salt water, apply it to the paper and let it dry. Afterward, I add silver nitrate mixed with water to the paper (I usually tape out 6x6 squares and only sensitize within them, so that my photographs have borders and the whole page doesn't turn black outside of the photos), let that dry and then put my negatives on top and put it out in the sun for about 6-8 minutes.

If you're interested in the chemistry here, basically the salt reacts with the silver nitrate to form silver chloride, which is light sensitive. The gelatin serves the same purpose as albumen in an albumen print and gum arabic in a gum bichromate print, to hold the components on top of the paper while keeping them from absorbing into the paper. The difference is that gelatin is a better binder and doesn't cause yellowing like albumen.

Fotokunst,
The process you are describing is a salted paper printing process. The binder can be variety of things PVOH, starch paste, PVA, gelatin, albumen or rabbit glue with salt.
POP paper uses the same light sensitive salt very very similar in principle but POP paper process works with an emulsion.
It has to be prepared by emulsion making steps: precipitation, ripening, washing (not necessary for paper), digestion and finals.
POP emulsion has excess silver nitrate like salted paper process, without the excess it becomes a DOP paper emulsion.

Fotokunst · Jun 4, 2018

Herzeleid said:
Fotokunst,
The process you are describing is a salted paper printing process. The binder can be variety of things PVOH, starch paste, PVA, gelatin, albumen or rabbit glue with salt.
POP paper uses the same light sensitive salt very very similar in principle but POP paper process works with an emulsion.
It has to be prepared by emulsion making steps: precipitation, ripening, washing (not necessary for paper), digestion and finals.
POP emulsion has excess silver nitrate like salted paper process, without the excess it becomes a DOP paper emulsion.

Thank you for explaining that to me. I'm self taught with film, and it was my understanding that POP paper referred to any paper prepared for a printing out process, where the image appears when exposed to light instead of creating a latent image that appears in developer like in a regular silver gelatin process.

Fotokunst · Jun 4, 2018

jnanian said:
atget printed on aristotypes ( collodion chloride )?
too cool !

hi Fotokunst !

10% silver nitrate ?
do you fix your prints ? do you wash them ? thanks !

john

sorry to grill you for particulars !

Hello!

My silver nitrate concentration is 15% for sensitizing these papers, I started off with a 20% solution but once I did 15% because I was running low and it made no difference, so I do 15% now to conserve. When I plan on keeping a contact print, as a wallet photo or something, I usually fix with plain hypo, sodium thiosulfate, this process doesn't need anything stronger. I use a stop bath of 1 part washing vinegar (the stuff they sell for cleaning, more concentrated than cooking vinegar) and 2 parts of water and wash like normal. Though you might choose to use a professional stop bath if these are important prints and not just contact sheets. I wash them like normal, after exposure, after the stop and very lightly after the fix and hang dry.

nmp · Jun 4, 2018

The problem is there is the generic term "printing out paper" and then there is the P.O.P. which was a commercial name for what OP was asking about. Easy to mix them up. The former can be ascribed to all processes that fully darken while being exposed, thus requiring no development such as salt prints, albumen prints (which itself is a salt print) or even ziatypes. As mentioned before, the latter alludes to a specific way the paper is prepared - by coating an emulsion made of a silver halide+nitrate in a binder. Here is a nice write-up of Aristotypes as they were called back then.

http://www.parisphoto.com/en/Glossary/Aristotype/

:Niranjan.

Salted print vs handmade POP paper

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