Salt Printing: Where Have You Been All My Life??

[Andrew O'Neill]

I'm not sure why I never gave this easy to do process a go at the onset of my Alt. printing journey... I'll contact print a 4x5 Adox CMS 20 II negative, that I shot and developed in a previous video...

 

[pentaxuser]

An interesting video Andrew and the link to YouTube allowed me to "like" and make my comments and ask my questions there

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

An interesting video Andrew and the link to YouTube allowed me to "like" and make my comments and ask my questions there

Thanks

pentaxuser

Thank you! I really appreciate it!

 

[fgorga]

Andrew,

Good start on a new (to you) process!

My main printing process is salted paper. I have three hints/tips for you...

1) Keep your silver and citrate solutions separate. Long term storage of the mixture leads to crystals forming and you can avoid this easily. I usually mix equal volumes of each solution (by counting drops) just before coating the paper. However, if I am going to be doing a lot of printing, I'll mix enough for several days work.

2) Add a drop or two of blue food coloring to the citrate stock solution. This allows you to see what you are doing when you coat paper. (Thanks to Christina Anderson for this idea.)

3) Fixing in two consecutive baths of fixer is know to be better than using one bath for salted-paper prints. A final "rinse aid" (sodium sulfite) bath before washing is also a good idea especially with thick paper such as HPR.

Lastly, if you want less warm salted-paper prints, experiment with gold toning. There are lots of variations out there, my preference is for gold-bicarbonate toner.

I always enjoy seeing your adventures in video.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew,

Good start on a new (to you) process!

My main printing process is salted paper. I have three hints/tips for you...

1) Keep your silver and citrate solutions separate. Long term storage of the mixture leads to crystals forming and you can avoid this easily. I usually mix equal volumes of each solution (by counting drops) just before coating the paper. However, if I am going to be doing a lot of printing, I'll mix enough for several days work.

2) Add a drop or two of blue food coloring to the citrate stock solution. This allows you to see what you are doing when you coat paper. (Thanks to Christina Anderson for this idea.)

3) Fixing in two consecutive baths of fixer is know to be better than using one bath for salted-paper prints. A final "rinse aid" (sodium sulfite) bath before washing is also a good idea especially with thick paper such as HPR.

Lastly, if you want less warm salted-paper prints, experiment with gold toning. There are lots of variations out there, my preference is for gold-bicarbonate toner.

I always enjoy seeing your adventures in video.

Thanks for the tips, Frank. I appreciate it! I'll keep the silver and citrate separate. What percentage of citrate solution are you working with? I have been experimenting with Gold as well as Selenium. I do really like the native colour of salt, though. The blue food colouring is brilliant idea!
For important prints, I will definitely fix in two baths. Thanks!!

 

[Rick A]

Nicely done Andy, my first attempt at salt printing didn't work quite as well but I've stuck with it. I actually like Van Dyke Brown a bit more though.

 

[Carnie Bob]

nice video on salt printing- what kind of permanence level would. one expect from a salt print?

 

[pentaxuser]

nice video on salt printing- what kind of permanence level would. one expect from a salt print?

That's a very interesting question Bob. We need someone who has done this for many years to give us an actual answer but I'd have thought that with the additional fixing with Thiosulphate there is no reason to suspect salt prints have a shorter life that "normal " prints i.e. the kind you get from enlarging, exposing under an enlarger, developing and fixing

Mind you that just a thought on my part - no evidence of any kind

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

Here's an interesting quote from 2022 from a Photrio member:

I have untoned salt prints hanging on the wall since 2013 and they look as good today as the day when they were printed. One was mounted using OP3 museum grade acrylite https://www.tapplastics.com/image/pdf/a_OP3_tech_data.pdf in 2015 and, depending on how my patio blinds are closed, can receive about 2 hours of weak daily sunlight reflected off an office window some distance away. The other was mounted in 2013 using plain glass but is not exposed to direct or reflected sunlight. As I said, there has been no noticeable change in either over the years.

pentaxuser

 

[mshchem]

Excellent video!!!

 

[Carnie Bob]

That's a very interesting question Bob. We need someone who has done this for many years to give us an actual answer but I'd have thought that with the additional fixing with Thiosulphate there is no reason to suspect salt prints have a shorter life that "normal " prints i.e. the kind you get from enlarging, exposing under an enlarger, developing and fixing

Mind you that just a thought on my part - no evidence of any kind

pentaxuser

My question is base on the experience of viewing the early Japanese salt hand coloured prints.https://curiosity.lib.harvard.edu/early-photography-of-japan/feature/hand-coloring-photographs-a295b332-85ac-4675-b045-b5921f379719

I wonder if the reason they looked brand new to me almost 150 years after they were made was because of the pigments in the hand-colouring and not the base salt print.

 

[koraks]

I'm not sure why I never gave this easy to do process a go at the onset of my Alt. printing journey

Wow, you didn't? Man, we should have told you!
It's one of the simplest and also most rewarding processes, IMO! It has a beautiful curve that almost magically maintains highlight as well as shadow detail. With the right negative and the right kind of paper, it's gorgeous. And I agree with @fgorga to give gold toning a try. I always use gold-thiourea toner.

I'd have thought that with the additional fixing with Thiosulphate there is no reason to suspect salt prints have a shorter life that "normal " prints i.e. the kind you get from enlarging, exposing under an enlarger, developing and fixing

No, this is not accurate. Silver gelatin prints have a massive advantage in terms of archival stability for a couple of reasons:
1: The silver is much less finely divided. I.e. the silver particles in a silver gelatin print are much larger, and therefore also much less sensitive to chemical degradation.
2: More importantly, in a silver gelatin print, the silver particles are embedded in a gelatin matrix. This gelatin matrix seals off the silver from atmospheric influence, in particular sulfur compounds.
3: In a silver gelatin print, it's easier to keep silver salts from penetrating the actual mesh of paper fibers. With fiber-based paper, relatively brief fixing and long washing aids this, with the baryta coating offering a layer of protection, while RC paper of course have the actual fiber mesh closed off from any outside influence with the RC lining on both sides. A salt print, however, is coated in such a way that the silver salts embed themselves quite deeply in the paper mesh, and particularly with heavier papers, it proves to be quite challenging to remove them through fixing and consequently washing.

The above have very profound effects on the stability of the print and make salt prints far more liable to both fading and yellowing.

It's extremely easy to process an RC print so it's archivally stable; it's in fact almost difficult to mess up. With FB silver gelatin, it's still straightforward to get excellent archival stability as long as you pay a little attention to processing. With salted paper, it's actually quite challenging to make a perfectly archival stable print, and even in the best case scenario, it'll be far more sensitive than a properly processed silver gelatin print.

In terms of archival stability, sunlight is not really the main concern with salt prints, although it can/will cause yellowing of the paper base if this contains lignin. Paper choice matters; 100% rag papers should not yellow. Sunlight (UV) will not affect the metallic silver particles of the print; they're stable in that sense, but they're not necessarily chemically stable. So the example of the framed prints on the wall only say so much.

A properly processed salt print can be quite stable, but it will only be so if it's stored under favorable conditions.

I wonder if the reason they looked brand new to me almost 150 years after they were made was because of the pigments in the hand-colouring and not the base salt print.

I find it very difficult/impossible to draw conclusions from digital versions (that I'm limited to viewing) of prints that were also treated with colored pigments. I do see distinct fading and yellowing especially around the edges of some of the images on the page you linked to. What may/will have helped is the thin nature of these Japanese papers, which makes the processes of fixing and washing far quicker and more effective than on heavier papers.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

My question is base on the experience of viewing the early Japanese salt hand coloured prints.https://curiosity.lib.harvard.edu/early-photography-of-japan/feature/hand-coloring-photographs-a295b332-85ac-4675-b045-b5921f379719

I wonder if the reason they looked brand new to me almost 150 years after they were made was because of the pigments in the hand-colouring and not the base salt print.

That's an interesting thought, Bob. It would be interesting to have one of those prints examined by x-radiography.

 

[pentaxuser]

A properly processed salt print can be quite stable, but it will only be so if it's stored under favorable conditions.

So can I ask what are these favourable conditions and under such conditions what might "quite stable" constitute in terms of years and months?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Proper fixing, washing, as well as toning I feel can go a long way to for print longevity. Now of course, I'm basing this on my work with Kallitype printing, which (apparently) is notorious for fading over time. I've not witnessed this with framed Kallitypes on my wall, that I made back in 2008. They get hit with Sun during the Winter months.

 

[juan]

Get Chris Anderson's book.

 

[koraks]

So can I ask what are these favourable conditions

Low relative humidity, stored in archival materials (passed PAT test) at room temperature or a little cooler.

and under such conditions what might "quite stable" constitute in terms of years and months?

Centuries.
But mess it up, and centuries can turn into weeks or months.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Get Chris Anderson's book.

Christina Anderson? I googled Chris Anderson and got someone else I aware of her book. Thanks!

 

[cliveh]

Andrew, if you like salt printing, but want to try something even simpler dating back to 1834 and Fox Talbot's original experiments, try the process of photogenic drawing.

 

[NedL]

One of the things we've noticed is that mid-19th century salt prints from photographers that tended to use very long washes ( hours ) tend to be the ones that are still in okay condition today. In any case, there are plenty of examples of both toned and untoned salt prints still in reasonable condition after >150 years.

 

[Carnie Bob]

One of the things we've noticed is that mid-19th century salt prints from photographers that tended to use very long washes ( hours ) tend to be the ones that are still in okay condition today. In any case, there are plenty of examples of both toned and untoned salt prints still in reasonable condition after >150 years.

That is kind of what I thought thanks

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew, if you like salt printing, but want to try something even simpler dating back to 1834 and Fox Talbot's original experiments, try the process of photogenic drawing.

Thanks cliveh. I'll take a look. Maybe it's something my students can do...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

One of the things we've noticed is that mid-19th century salt prints from photographers that tended to use very long washes ( hours ) tend to be the ones that are still in okay condition today. In any case, there are plenty of examples of both toned and untoned salt prints still in reasonable condition after >150 years.

That's good to know! Thanks!

 

[koraks]

In any case, there are plenty of examples of both toned and untoned salt prints still in reasonable condition after >150 years.

All the ones that are faded beyond recognition are likely to have been discarded over the last century or so. So we can safely say a salt print can last very long - but not much more than that.

 

[cliveh]

Thanks cliveh. I'll take a look. Maybe it's something my students can do...

Not recommended for health and safety reasons, as you are handling silver nitrate.