Salt print fogged paper issue

marcus newton · May 18, 2024

Hey all - first time poster here. I have a strange issue with BFK Rives paper. I am testing different papers with the salted paper process. I have had a lot of success with BFK in the past but here is what is going on… I made several 4x5 test sheets using different papers including bfk. I salted them all at the same time with 3% salt solution. Throughout the week I have been testing them by sensitizing them with silver shortly before exposure. With normal results, i moved on to BFK and as it was drying it was completely fogged. i was confused at first, so I was worried that my sensitizer was compromised.. then I took a paper with previous success and BFK and sensitized them together and guess what! BFK was fogged and other paper was not..

Any clues or experience with this? what could be fogging this paper?

koraks · May 18, 2024

Welcome aboard!

Paper is tricky - especially for tricky processes like salted paper.

marcus newton said:
what could be fogging this paper?

The first that comes to mind is some kind of sulfur compound. But really, there are all kinds of things that might fog a pure silver chloride emulsion.
Do you add citric acid to your silver nitrate or salting solution? It can help cut fog down - although it may not be sufficient in this case.

In any case, I'd just steer clear of this paper for this particular process.

Also note that papers change - even if they retain their name. There are many examples out there of papers that were "known to work" for some process and then, all of a sudden, they start producing problems. This is usually due to a change in formulation or manufacturing process. But manufacturers generally don't tell us about such changes, and they may be unaware of the relevance of such changes to begin with.

On the topic of paper, Christina Anderson has done a ton of work testing papers for alt. processes, especially cyanotype. See e.g. here: https://www.alternativephotography....sic-cyanotype-process-1613-research-for-free/
AFAIK she's currently in the process of updating her massive paper database. Concerning salted paper, there's a recent post of hers here: https://groups.io/g/altphotolist/topic/papers_for_salted_paper/105901090
Don't hesitate reaching out to Christina with your experience; either she can confirm your problem, or she'll be happy to hear about it for her present research.

retina_restoration · May 18, 2024

My understanding is that BFK Rives paper is not on the list of papers approved for salted paper printing (or any Alt processes).

Andrew O'Neill · May 18, 2024

You could try acidifying the BFK first, or better yet, just not use it.

koraks · May 19, 2024

retina_restoration said:
the list of papers approved for salted paper printing

Christina is working hard to make a somewhat comprehensive list on this - but it'll never really be comprehensive (and she knows it, too).

Test, test, test.

retina_restoration · May 19, 2024

koraks said:
Christina is working hard to make a somewhat comprehensive list on this - but it'll never really be comprehensive (and she knows it, too).

Test, test, test.

Indeed she is, and she works hard on our behalf, for which I am grateful. One of the problems is that "a good alt paper" is a moving target: subtle changes in how papers are made can have a huge impact on their usability with certain processes, making what was once an excellent paper into one that is completely unusable.
Fortunately, papers like Bergger COT, Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag, and Canson Platine are consistently high on the list of good alt process papers.

koraks · May 19, 2024

retina_restoration said:
One of the problems is that "a good alt paper" is a moving target

Ain't that true.
Like you said, there's a couple of consistently high-performers, although from time to time, reports pop up about problems with those as well. Sometimes minor inconveniences, sometimes more worrying problems. Usually process-specific, too. Test...test....test...

marcus newton · May 19, 2024

koraks said:
Welcome aboard!

Paper is tricky - especially for tricky processes like salted paper.

The first that comes to mind is some kind of sulfur compound. But really, there are all kinds of things that might fog a pure silver chloride emulsion.
Do you add citric acid to your silver nitrate or salting solution? It can help cut fog down - although it may not be sufficient in this case.

In any case, I'd just steer clear of this paper for this particular process.

Also note that papers change - even if they retain their name. There are many examples out there of papers that were "known to work" for some process and then, all of a sudden, they start producing problems. This is usually due to a change in formulation or manufacturing process. But manufacturers generally don't tell us about such changes, and they may be unaware of the relevance of such changes to begin with.

On the topic of paper, Christina Anderson has done a ton of work testing papers for alt. processes, especially cyanotype. See e.g. here: https://www.alternativephotography....sic-cyanotype-process-1613-research-for-free/
AFAIK she's currently in the process of updating her massive paper database. Concerning salted paper, there's a recent post of hers here: https://groups.io/g/altphotolist/topic/papers_for_salted_paper/105901090
Don't hesitate reaching out to Christina with your experience; either she can confirm your problem, or she'll be happy to hear about it for her present research.

Thanks for this response. Believe it or not, lately I have been using BFK from two different eras.. one stock I bought my self 2 years ago, and one I was donated from what could be produced 10 years ago. Both are in the mix as I have stacked them together. I can tell the difference between the two stocks based on the size (scale) of the paper and will test that out...
Also - Christina is such a huge resource!
M

marcus newton · May 19, 2024

retina_restoration said:
My understanding is that BFK Rives paper is not on the list of papers approved for salted paper printing (or any Alt processes).

Yes, I have heard concerns but I have plenty of it and I dabbled with sizing with arrow root and casein. I clearly have had mixed results with he "unsized" BFK. Will likely set aside from now on

marcus newton · May 19, 2024

Thank you all!

M

koraks · May 20, 2024

Very welcome, marcus! Thanks for joining the forum; I'd be happy to hear more from you and perhaps see some of your prints one day!

Andrew O'Neill · May 20, 2024

At the end of the day, I found it best to bite the bullet, and go with papers that were designed for Alt. processes. Yes, they cost considerably more, but well worth it. Worked with Hahnemuhle PR for a few years, but now sticking with Revere Platinum. I prefer heavy papers, especially for gum printing, with the repeated water soakings. Also best for Carbon transfer, too. Welcome to Photrio! Enjoy the world of Alt. printing! I've been hooked for years!

retina_restoration · May 20, 2024

I'm with Andrew on this - buy papers specifically made for alt processes. If HPR is too expensive for you, then try Revere Platinum Rag instead. It's very reasonably priced and works very well, without any extra steps (like sizing).

ole-squint · Jun 4, 2024

marcus newton said:
Hey all - first time poster here. I have a strange issue with BFK Rives paper. I am testing different papers with the salted paper process. I have had a lot of success with BFK in the past but here is what is going on… I made several 4x5 test sheets using different papers including bfk. I salted them all at the same time with 3% salt solution. Throughout the week I have been testing them by sensitizing them with silver shortly before exposure. With normal results, i moved on to BFK and as it was drying it was completely fogged. i was confused at first, so I was worried that my sensitizer was compromised.. then I took a paper with previous success and BFK and sensitized them together and guess what! BFK was fogged and other paper was not..

Any clues or experience with this? what could be fogging this paper?

I use BFK without any problems, along with Revere Platinum and cot 320. I salt with the "universal salting recipe": 50 gm citric acid, 25 gm salt, water to 1 liter. Citric acid helps to reduce fog. Some printers add it to the silver nitrate, but silver can precipitate out if not careful.

Salt print fogged paper issue

marcus newton

Attachments

koraks

Moderator

retina_restoration

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

koraks

Moderator

retina_restoration

koraks

Moderator

marcus newton

marcus newton

marcus newton

koraks

Moderator

Andrew O'Neill

Moderator

retina_restoration

ole-squint

Salt print fogged paper issue

Attachments

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency