First I'll thank the moderators for not taking the reactionary step of closing down this topic.
The vast majority of those photographs were made when the children were pre-teens
I live in SW Florida where Ron DeSantis and minions lead the nation in the number of books banned/removed from libraries. Because this is a photographers’ forum, I think that these acts of political theater impact all of us—even if our work isn’t “problematic.” I work in an environment where I am confronted weekly by people who have a problem because I am using a camera in a public space. And while I don’t expect the next four years to be any easier, I will continue (or double-down on) my work …
Jock Sturges had better watch his back.
I think each one of us would be publicly vocal and concerned about something we perceive as so horrible we must take action against it. This is in our nature I suppose. However the underling motivation to do so may not be to 'save' people from corruption but rather as a crude reaction to aspect of the subject we may be personally in agreement with....but don't want to be associated with socially.....because most of those objecting - if asked - do not think they themselves are being corrupted or damaged by seeing the offensive material - they are often offended or concerned on behalf of other people.
Given the specific targeting of Mann's five pieces and their subject matter, it seems this part of the Open Letter is completely irrelevant to the issue. I'm mystified by it.
I appreciate the decision to allow this discussion to proceed. I think people have been respectful and given thoughtful responses, on the whole.You're welcome; if it continues the way it's been going for the last page or so, I don't think we'll have much reason to shut it down. Fingers crossed; I'd personally rather see it continue.
Yes, I get that. "Problematic" art isn't a new idea. But I absolutely do not agree with the idea that in order to deal with "problematic" pieces, a police raid to have them removed from the museum should be prompted.Now, for a more personal note:
Without wanting to draw into doubt Mann's intentions in any way, and attempting to formulate as carefully as I can: I can imagine the concern people have with creating imagery and publishing it that depicts minors in a way that some people respond negatively (and strongly so) to, and/or that some people may abuse/misinterpret/mis-appropriate. The problem here is one of consent; pre-teens are generally considered to not be optimally capable of judging the effects of their decisions, and there's reasonable doubt as to the autonomy of those decisions in the first place. I can understand why the body of Mann's work that involves images of naked children is considered problematic.
Certainly. But Mann's children are fully grown adults now and have been asked their opinion n of their mother's photographs and persist in defending the work, as adults. None of her children have asked that those pieces NOT be displayed in the many shows in which they have appeared in the 33 years since they were first published. (In 'Immediate Family")The children pictured will have to live with the consequences of choices that were arguably made in part for them, not so much by them.
It never was and will never be. Just type the words "Piss Christ" and watch the anger rise to the surface.It would be nice if we lived in a world where the best intentions of an artist like Mann would automatically create a safe space for her work to exist in. However, this is evidently not the case.
Sure, since this DID happen, that makes it worthy of discussion.In reality, people respond to it in numerous ways, including ways that are contrary to the intentions of the work or the people involved in making the work. This makes it a difficult topic - we can reasonably expect a person like Mann to be aware of this issue, and thus, the question arises whether it's justifiable to produce and publish such work. Without wanting to, or even being able to answer this question, I think the fact that it's asked, is reasonable.
I am not familiar with her work, so I briefly looked up some of her images. Provocative? Perhaps, but then so was the famous photo of "napalm girl".
It strikes me that the real questions are:
1. Are the images intended to bring about sexual excitement?
2. Were the people in the images actually harmed or put in harm by creating them?
I am, of course, not the arbiter of these things. But I saw nothing sexually titillating in the images that Google presented me with. Nudity in itself, including of children, is not a problem. Heck, my parents took plenty of nude photos of me when I was a baby and child. They just weren't published photographers, though I have chosen in my own adulthood to share some.
I am not sufficiently familiar with Sally Mann or her family to know what the children now think of those images and how they feel about them being on display. It would strike me that actually asking them might be a good step before any authority swoops to remove them from galleries.
You're welcome; if it continues the way it's been going for the last page or so, I don't think we'll have much reason to shut it down. Fingers crossed; I'd personally rather see it continue.
Now, for a more personal note:
Without wanting to draw into doubt Mann's intentions in any way, and attempting to formulate as carefully as I can: I can imagine the concern people have with creating imagery and publishing it that depicts minors in a way that some people respond negatively (and strongly so) to, and/or that some people may abuse/misinterpret/mis-appropriate. The problem here is one of consent; pre-teens are generally considered to not be optimally capable of judging the effects of their decisions, and there's reasonable doubt as to the autonomy of those decisions in the first place. I can understand why the body of Mann's work that involves images of naked children is considered problematic. The children pictured will have to live with the consequences of choices that were arguably made in part for them, not so much by them.
It would be nice if we lived in a world where the best intentions of an artist like Mann would automatically create a safe space for her work to exist in. However, this is evidently not the case. In reality, people respond to it in numerous ways, including ways that are contrary to the intentions of the work or the people involved in making the work. This makes it a difficult topic - we can reasonably expect a person like Mann to be aware of this issue, and thus, the question arises whether it's justifiable to produce and publish such work. Without wanting to, or even being able to answer this question, I think the fact that it's asked, is reasonable.
There were so many bogus "repressed memories" of child abuse that it has become a dubious claim at best. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndromeIt's even more problematic today than when Mann released the book years ago. Recently, many adults are now willing and have publicly acknowledged being sexually abused as children, a frequently occurring situation that had been kept secret and well hidden from public view in years past. So more people are concerned today with the issue.
Do I detect a form of...censorship?
It's even more problematic today than when Mann released the book years ago. Recently, many adults are now willing and have publicly acknowledged being sexually abused as children, a frequently occurring situation that had been kept secret and well hidden from public view in years past. So more people are concerned today with the issue.
I think people have been respectful and given thoughtful responses, on the whole.
I'm sure Sally Mann is mortified by these accusations. But it's exactly these kinds of reactions that propelled her and Jock Sturges onto the international art scene thirty years ago. It's about the best free publicity she can get. Even more people worldwide will have the opportunity to see her work.
I'm curious if anyone reading this discussion believes it was reasonable to initiate a police raid on the museum to have the works removed from the Forth Worth show?
I'm curious if anyone reading this discussion believes it was reasonable to initiate a police raid on the museum to have the works removed from the Forth Worth show?
Both Second Sight: The Photographs of Sally Mann (1983) and At Twelve: Portraits of Young Women (1988) were published before Immediate Family (1992) and these two monographs were regarded as significant, important works and did a great deal to "propel her onto the international art scene". It's inaccurate to suggest that Mann hadn't already achieved significant fame prior to Immediate Family. That volume is not solely responsible for her reputation as one of the most important American photographers of our age.
Well this is a completely alien action to me so No is my answer It's alien in that in the U.K. unless a picture clearly contravenes U.K. law on what constitutes child pornography such a raid would not be lawful but clearly the legal situation in the U.S is clearly a "world away"
pentaxuser
Mann has stated on numerous occasions that her children were willing, active participants in the crafting of the photographs (and her children have spoken publicly in agreement).
Closed minds and closed hearts are of little benefit to a photographer.
Reading the objection letter, I’m puzzled as to how the images mentioned ‘normalize … the LGBTQ lifestyle’. Can anyone enlighten me?
Jock Sturges had better watch his back.
That is true. I didn't deny it. But it was still exploitation. The photos could have existed solely for the "immediate family" to view and it would not be exploitation. The photos were turned into a source of income. That her children were ok with it then and now means they were not harmed. But they were exploited.
Look closer. Perhaps not this exact scenario but There is plenty of evidence online where the British police, England especially, enforce “suspicion” and other legal non-criminal activities against photographers that someone deems annoying or odd.
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