Salgado and Illy Coffee

BrianShaw · Sep 29, 2006

ongarine said:
Illy has taken a strong stand as marketers of coffee products to support sustainable agriculture and fair market practices. They are doing something positive in their industry to ensure that workers share in the profits of the industry.
That's all

Maybe we should all boycott coffee so there is no further exploitation of coffee field workers.

Maybe we should all stop wearing clothes, so there is no further exploitation of garment workers.

Maybe we should all stop staying in hotels, so there is no further exploitation of hotel cleaning crews.

Maybe we should all stop eating in restaurants, so there is no further exploitation of restauraunt workers.

Maybe we should all stop eating fruit and vegetables, so there is no further exploitation of migrant farm workers.

Maybe we should all stop hiring gardeners and maids, so there is no further explotation...

Isn't there a chance that the folks at the "botton of the food chain" are actually happy to have this work. Poverty with a job and pay sure seems better than poverty without.

(I'm sipping a mug of Starbucks coffee as I write and sincerely thank the coffee pickers for their contribution. I do wish that they had better options in life, but I hope they are making the best of their situation and I commend them for the hard work they put in to support their families, etc.)

StephenS · Sep 29, 2006

Brian, I agree with what you say. But for many people they have no idea (or don't care at all) where the products and services they use come from. They go through life unaware of the circumstances of anyone else.

There will always be differences in the quality of peoples lives, but at the very least it would be nice to know there is some thought of others (through tools such as documentary work) and those who would try and make a difference can in fact do so.

BrianShaw · Sep 29, 2006

Yes Stephen, when people don't see those who labor for us they tend to "pretend" it all happens by some sort of magic. Seeing those who labor under difficult and often unfair conditions helps me be sensitive to the real world situation. I hope it helps others do the same... or at least be aware that these situations exist.

I still don't quite know how I can contribute to large-scale improvement of the situation, but I know it doesn't help to hide their existance. Knowing these folks exist makes me more likely to smile and speak gratitude to the sanitation worker who's busting his gut to empty my trash can. Seeing their faces makes them much more real to me.

copake_ham · Sep 29, 2006

Although I don't drink a lot of coffee - well, truth be told, about one a day during the colder months - when I do so, I buy from Starbucks.

Why?

Well first off, I like their coffee, particularly Sumatra and Kenya.

Secondly, they seem to be a "good" corporate citizen. They have a strong corporate responsibility ethic to support both sustainable agriculture and fair market pricing to ensure that workers at all levels benefit.

Third, they are committed to helping the environment including rain forest restoration projects in Costa Rica and elsewhere.

Fourth, their domestic employees are encouraged to advance and they provide both health insurance and education assistance. Something not often made available to retail workers.

To me, Starbucks proves the fact that a corporation can be profitable and also contribute to the greater good rather than acting as if those goals are mutually exclusive.

So you see, Stephen S, some of us do consider where the stuff we buy comes from, who makes it, who markets it etc.

And again, no, I don't work for them and have not financial interest in them.

StephenS · Sep 29, 2006

copake_ham said:
So you see, Stephen S, some of us do consider where the stuff we buy comes from, who makes it, who markets it etc.

When did I say you didn't? I said many people don't. And that's true and it's a shame - too many people aren't concerned about things until that thing is smacking them on the ass. Then they may take notice. Like when tax time rolls around.

John McCallum · Sep 30, 2006

The images are from a series called In Principio.

Years ago it briefly crossed my mind that Salgado's work could be seen as exploiting the subject of the photo. But as I got to know more about him and particularly after getting to know the vast amount of work that makes his collection Workers, it became difficult to see it that way. Anyone who changes their vocation from a high level economic govt advisor to social documentary photographer ..... well one really has to wonder at the allegations of his intention to exploit. I see it more as he has stated in the past. That he is accutely aware of the affects of large economies on working people, and wants to help solve injustices and celebrate the proletariat through his photography. Pretty noble cause.

“The picture is not made by the photographer, the picture is more good or less good in function of the relationship that you have with the people you photograph.” - Salgado

For this particular project I concur with ongarine. The coffee trade has taken a hammering over the last few years from those who are aware of the imbalance in income between the coffee grower/picker and the end bean sellers. Illy have taken a public stand against exploitation in the industry and managed to get Salgado to stand for them. He is Brazillian, and he is not silly.

copake_ham · Sep 30, 2006

John McCallum said:
....

For this particular project I concur with ongarine. The coffee trade has taken a hammering over the last few years from those who are aware of the imbalance in income between the coffee grower/picker and the end bean sellers. Illy have taken a public stand against exploitation in the industry and managed to get Salgado to stand for them. He is Brazillian, and he is not silly.

Very interesting that you cite ongarine's post #24 which directly quotes my #23 - although my post is deliberately cautious in characterizing Illy's commitment.

In fact, Illy is a newcomer to taking a stand. The American company, Starbucks, took that stand years ago.

The OP subject was located in the lobby of a brand-new, super upscale mixed use tower in the middle of Manhattan with the intention of making a marketing "splash" using the Salgado photos.

It will be interesting to see if Illy's intent is any deeper than simply trying to trumpet "concern" as a marketing ploy.

Do we have any record of Illy's actual corporate responsibility as we do for Starbucks?

http://www.starbucks.com/aboutus/csrannualreport.asp

ongarine · Sep 30, 2006

Dear George,
I quote you completely because your statement expressed very well what I want to say about Illy coffee.
Illy (along with others companies and organizations) had started this operation here in Italy years ago and we know it very well, maybe we don't know the same about Starbucks since we live in another part of the world.
Maybe this is the same for you about Illy?
So do not be so suspicios about things you really don't know.
Don't you think Salgado had all the good reasons to support Illy initiative since he is a concerned photographer about workers right?
Hope this will clear this situation........

removed account4 · Sep 30, 2006

copake_ham said:
Although I don't drink a lot of coffee - well, truth be told, about one a day during the colder months - when I do so, I buy from Starbucks.

Why?

Well first off, I like their coffee, particularly Sumatra and Kenya.

Secondly, they seem to be a "good" corporate citizen. They have a strong corporate responsibility ethic to support both sustainable agriculture and fair market pricing to ensure that workers at all levels benefit.

Third, they are committed to helping the environment including rain forest restoration projects in Costa Rica and elsewhere.

Fourth, their domestic employees are encouraged to advance and they provide both health insurance and education assistance. Something not often made available to retail workers.

To me, Starbucks proves the fact that a corporation can be profitable and also contribute to the greater good rather than acting as if those goals are mutually exclusive.

So you see, Stephen S, some of us do consider where the stuff we buy comes from, who makes it, who markets it etc.

And again, no, I don't work for them and have not financial interest in them.

george:

i worked at starbucks for 3+ years.
yes, they try to help the people that
they buy their beans from - they build them clinics
and help them live a better life than they were living before
they arrived. ( if they didn't, they wouldn't get their coffee )

if they paid the coffee growers/workers "minimum wage"
as they have to in hawaii -- all the coffee they sell would cost
at least of $30-60 a pound.
they would have to charge even more for their coffee at the consumer end too.

copake_ham · Sep 30, 2006

jnanian said:
george:

i worked at starbucks for 3+ years.
yes, they try to help the people that
they buy their beans from - they build them clinics
and help them live a better life than they were living before
they arrived. ( if they didn't, they wouldn't get their coffee )

if they paid the coffee growers/workers "minimum wage"
as they have to in hawaii -- all the coffee they sell would cost
at least of $30-60 a pound.
they would have to charge even more for their coffee at the consumer end too.

You bring up a very valid point. Coffee (as well as tea and cocoa) is a "commodity" that became so because historically the grower/workers were "exploited" and paid a pittance.

So, unlike other types of "exotic" comestibles (e.g. wild harvested caviar - which is now all but gone and rapidly being replaced with farmed stuff) - coffee, tea etc. was always a "cheap" luxury to consumers.

Part of the problem is that these products still require hand harvesting. Although I have read that they are trying to mechanize tea harvesting because labor is getting scarce in the countries where it is grown - due to alternative, more lucrative economic options in those rising economies.

But even if you could mechanize coffee harvesting - since most of the places where it is grown do not have economic alternatives - you would only make matters worse by putting the harvesters out of work!

A real conundrum going to show there are no simple solutions in life.

John McCallum · Sep 30, 2006

Illy doesn't have a large retail presence over here. It is a familiar label to coffee drinkers in Europe, but primarily as a bean supplier. So they don't push their "We are good and responsible buyers" campaigns in response to consumer pressure onto the non-thinking retail market.
If you wish to know more about how Illy buy and distribute their beans you've got to really search for it. You then find they a have long-term sustainable system involving education of the growers and incentives to increase quality, whilst paying higher than market prices to their suppliers. They have direct relationships with their growers, not with brokers ...

Dead Link Removed

Coffee farmers are becoming even more impoverished, going further into debt and losing their land due to extremely low world coffee prices. Meanwhile coffee companies such as Starbucks have not lowered consumer prices but are pocketing the difference, even taking into account the quality premiums in the specialty industry…

Incidentally, there is a particular type of consumer that learns just enough about their supplier to ease their conscience. Then after swallowing the marketing hype with gleeful abandon they offer tidbits, knowledgeably in supportive social situations. To me this type is deplorable - far worse than an ignorant coffee quaffer who just doesn't think too much about it. Because the thing is, they probably could have the nouse to really find out if their morals were well enough developed.

Just a thought ...

copake_ham · Sep 30, 2006

John McCallum said:
Illy doesn't have a large retail presence over here. It is a familiar label to coffee drinkers in Europe, but primarily as a bean supplier. So they don't push their "We are good and responsible buyers" campaigns in response to consumer pressure onto the non-thinking retail market.
If you wish to know more about how Illy buy and distribute their beans you've got to really search for it. You then find they a have long-term sustainable system involving education of the growers and incentives to increase quality, whilst paying higher than market prices to their suppliers. They have direct relationships with their growers, not with brokers ...

Dead Link Removed

Coffee farmers are becoming even more impoverished, going further into debt and losing their land due to extremely low world coffee prices. Meanwhile coffee companies such as Starbucks have not lowered consumer prices but are pocketing the difference, even taking into account the quality premiums in the specialty industry

Incidentally, there is a particular type of consumers that learns just enough about their supplier to ease their conscience. Then after swallowing the marketing hype with gleeful abandon they offer tidbits, knowledgeably in supportive social situations. To me this type is deplorable - far worse than an ignorant coffee quaffer who just doesn't think too much about it. Because the thing is, they probably could have the nouse to really find out if their morals were well enough developed.

Just a thought ...

In all honesty, this sounds like a bunch of anti-globalization, anti-capitalist, anti-West, anti-American crap.

You'll excuse me now - but I'm going to go over to the table in the corner and sip my vente of Sumatra and check up on my stock portfolio.

Outta' this thread....

John McCallum · Sep 30, 2006

cpake_ham said:
In all honesty, this sounds like a bunch of anti-globalization, anti-capitalist, anti-West, anti-American crap.

Huh?

... Oh and they would be quick to denounce the photography of people like Salgado and slow to figure out what's really going on ...

removed account4 · Sep 30, 2006

copake_ham said:
But even if you could mechanize coffee harvesting - since most of the places where it is grown do not have economic alternatives - you would only make matters worse by putting the harvesters out of work!

A real conundrum going to show there are no simple solutions in life.

there is too much "hand work" to make coffee harvesting mechanized.
they don't pick everything on the bush, but only the cherries that are ripe,
and leave the others. not only that, when they pulp, dry/ process the coffee there is even
more work involved and a robot wouldn't be able to do what is needed,
they should give the coffee farmers a real wage as they give their hawaiian counterparts (by law).
the only thing is, would americans ( or anyone else for that matter)
happily pay more than $7 for a cup of coffee?
don't think so, it would end up being like a 7-11 "kona blend" ...

one sad thing about starbucks is that very few of the people who work
there know how to make GOOD drinks anymore.
they have sophisticated fully automated machines ( that don't make good espresso)
to make all their drinks, and it has turned their bar-person into a button-pushing-drone
who can't even steam milk or make (dense) foam if their life depended on it.
instead they are "servicing" their customer with a smile and a poorly made milky drink
and a high fat pastry in exchange for 12$,
all so they can look out the window in some prime rented-real-estate location and watch the world go by ...

copake_ham · Oct 1, 2006

jnanian said:
there is too much "hand work" to make coffee harvesting mechanized.
they don't pick everything on the bush, but only the cherries that are ripe,
and leave the others. not only that, when they pulp, dry/ process the coffee there is even
more work involved and a robot wouldn't be able to do what is needed,
they should give the coffee farmers a real wage as they give their hawaiian counterparts (by law).
the only thing is, would americans ( or anyone else for that matter)
happily pay more than $7 for a cup of coffee?
don't think so, it would end up being like a 7-11 "kona blend" ...

one sad thing about starbucks is that very few of the people who work
there know how to make GOOD drinks anymore.
they have sophisticated fully automated machines ( that don't make good espresso)
to make all their drinks, and it has turned their bar-person into a button-pushing-drone
who can't even steam milk or make (dense) foam if their life depended on it.
instead they are "servicing" their customer with a smile and a poorly made milky drink
and a high fat pastry in exchange for 12$,
all so they can look out the window in some prime rented-real-estate location and watch the world go by ...

While officially out of this thread because...I wanted to close out with you.

The reason I mentioned the search for a way to mechanize tea harvesting (since tea is grown in places where economic development has advanced to the point of severely reducing labor supply) the mechanical harvesters are "smart".

As I understand it, they use fiber optics and artificial intelligence to "identify" which leaves are "ripe" and ready to be picked. Apparently, it is still a "crude" process - but one being actively pursued since the tea producing areas have no choice given that there are few workers left to do hand harvesting.

As opposed to coffee, most of the tea producing countries/regions have already moved up the economic development ladder to the point where workers have better alternatives to low wage harvesting jobs.

As to the quality of Starbuck drinks - I have to confess, I have NEVER purchased anything at a Starbucks except a plain cup of coffee! To which, at the customer "bar" I've added my own half-and-half and 1-1/2 packs of artificial sweetner!

And with that - now really outta' this thread - time to leave it to the bashers....

haris · Oct 1, 2006

So, you good photographers, imagine next:

There is campaign, you are chosen photographer, and you have to do with model. Now, model in your country asks for 1000 EURO per day for posing.

So, one day you come for example in my country and you see next: Cup of coffe here is 0,5 Euro and in your country is 3 EURO. Lunch in "normal" restaurant is 5 EURO and in your country is 50 EURO. And here is much cheaper clothing, public transpotation, apartement prices, and everything.

So you say "great instead of paying 1000 EURO per day for model in Bosnia I will pay is 50 EURO per day." Of course model here dream to get same price for hers/his work as in your country, we dream to have standard of life like in "developed western European" countries, but for now that is that. Ok, maybe model can beg for little more, maybe 100 or 200 euro per day, but nowere close you will be ready to pay model in your country...

So, you come here and you do you make you job. You rent model same "quality" as in your country, which do same job as model in your country would do, and you get same results. Only you pay model here for fraction of price you would pay in your country.

Now, you go to client who ordered campaign and they pay you previously agreed amount of money for your job. Of course when you calculate your price for job you calculate that you will pay your model 1000 EURO per day, not 50 EURO per day. But you didn't tell to client you didn't use model in your coutry, but use model in my country which you payed 50 EURO for model instead 1000 EURO.

Is that ethical?

If you think it is, you don't have any rights to tell anybody anything regarding ethic.

John McCallum · Oct 1, 2006

Good analogy.

Salgado and Illy Coffee

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