Safelights

rmolson · May 29, 2009

Safelights

I just opened a new box of Oriental Seagull Fiber to run a few simple tests. I gather it is faster than Multigrade. I had edge fog coming out my ears Not gray fog,. black d max fog!. And that was from just unwrapping and removing the paper from the plastic bag.
Started running safelight tests. 15 watt CFLs are not the same as 15 watt incandescent regardless of what the environmentalists are saying . Switched to 15 watt plain bulb At 3 foot,.but still had some fog at 3 minutes, finally got down to a 7 ½ watt bulb and figured the filter was probably just too old. Dug out an old Kodak Red1A and it seemed safe The price on new 5 ½ OC filters is out of sight...But my beautiful practically new $45.00 TimeOlite which is 12 inches or less away from the work counter also was fogging the paper .I discovered. Cant move it any further away and still reach it, I have been covering the face of the dial with a black cardboard shroud when handling film because of the glow. I ripped out my fluorescents at one time but it made no difference So now I am using an old WWII TimeOlite from a blue print machine I found at a garage sale, and it doesnt fog anything Does anybody have any idea of how to remove the stuff on the dial to kill the glow.And where to find new safelight filters or substitutes that dont cost the farm After all its not the principle, its the money!

archphoto · May 29, 2009

Check for some filters used for lighting, they come in dozens of colors and ND.
They are rather flimpsy, but you can tape them very easy and they are cheap.
Lee makes them as others, they don't have to rigid as you are not photographing through them.

Peter

DannL · May 29, 2009

Some thoughts.

I have used with great success the 15/25 watt red party bulbs found in some stores. I shopped until I found a version that was "extra dark ruby red". It costs several dollars. In locating a suitable bulb I found it important to avoid bulbs that had a thin, almost transparent coating. I found seeing is much more difficult with red light, and for that reason I normally use the kodak No. 10 and OC safelight filters. But, in a pinch a simple red bulb may work. Always test your safelights with the papers you use. Because of the differing spectral sensitivities of papers and films I would not suggest using a safelight that emits red light for everything. The chart below covers many papers and films. Each paper and film type will have it's own safelight requirement.

Kodak Safelight Recommendations chart:http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/k4/k4Recomnd.shtml#93831

I use a time-o-light who's entire face glows in the dark. It's placement on the table is with the face pointing up towards the ceiling. I find it easier to operate the push buttons in this position. In this position it hasn't fogged paper or film.

BetterSense · May 29, 2009

You could consider dropping incandescents altogether and going with red LEDs, which are probably the safest safelight there is.

I have used with great success the 15 watt red party bulds sold in many stores.

The GE party bulbs sold at Walmart are NOT suitable as safelights...they are just about as safe as a normal incandescent bulb! There may be others that are safe, but don't bother testing the GE "party time" red bulbs.

john_s · May 29, 2009

I made some LED safelights that were not really safe. I didn't want red because it's harder for the eye to see in red light, so I chose an amber colour. But it did cause some effect on mainstream VC papers, so I placed a sheet of Rubylith* over it. It's now rather red, but it sure is safe. I can run a higher light level with the red, so it's not too bad as far as visibility is concerned.

* available from graphic art shops.

Removed Account · May 29, 2009

Freestyle's Premier Safelights are pretty inexpensive especially if you just buy the filters. A 10"x12" OC filter from them is $19.99 USD. Even a brand new 5x7 OC safelight from them is only $29.99.

15w CFLs are definitely a LOT stronger than a 15 watt incandescent, that's one of the selling points! They put out more light for a given wattage; a quick google shows that a 14 watt CFL will on average put out about as much light as a 60 watt incandescent. That combined with their high UV output I would think makes them a big no-no for safelight use. Does anyone know if safelight filters are made to block UV radiation in addition to blue and green light? That might be part of your problem. Just use a good ol' glowing tungsten bulb with the wattage that your safelight is rated for and you should be fine!

nworth · May 30, 2009

CFLs are about 5 times as bright as incandescent bulbs of the same wattage. Use an incandescent lamp in the safelight, or buy a specially made LED or fluorescent safelight. It is always wise to test you safelight if you start using a different bulb. As for your edge fogging, it may or may not be due to the safelight. I've had a few packages of fresh paper that were edge fogged even though they had no excess light exposure. I suspect it was chemical fog that happened somewhere along the way. Sulfide fumes are pretty common in industrial areas, and they are notorious foggants.

john_s · May 30, 2009

If you install in a traditional safelight an incandescent globe on a dimmer circuit, when you tun it down it becomes not only dimmer but also redder, and hence safer.

Doremus Scudder · May 30, 2009

From the Oriental USA website
http://www.orientalphotousa.com/msds/newseagull.asp#selectvc-fb

"Safelights
15W bulbs should be used. A Kodak OC or a Ilford S902 Safelight filter are recommended. The safelight should be at least 1.2 meter from the bed of the enlarger or developer. After exposure, be careful not to expose the emulsion side of the print to light."

The above indicates that Seagull is in the rather normal sensitivity range for papers. Your paper may have been edge fogged before you took it out of the plastic light-proof bag, e.g., in manufacture. Sometimes the physical stress from cutting the paper fogs the edges. I've seen this a few times; obviously new and correctly handled paper had edge fog. For me, since I print with rather larger borders and trim the prints for final display, the edge fog is/was no problem.

Is there fog anywhere else on your paper?

Do a safelight test before you assume that it is your safelight that is causing the problem. (Although, I don't think that using the CFLs is a good idea, in the darkroom or anywhere...)

Best,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder.com

wogster · May 30, 2009

Justin Silber said:
Freestyle's Premier Safelights are pretty inexpensive especially if you just buy the filters. A 10"x12" OC filter from them is $19.99 USD. Even a brand new 5x7 OC safelight from them is only $29.99.

15w CFLs are definitely a LOT stronger than a 15 watt incandescent, that's one of the selling points! They put out more light for a given wattage; a quick google shows that a 14 watt CFL will on average put out about as much light as a 60 watt incandescent. That combined with their high UV output I would think makes them a big no-no for safelight use. Does anyone know if safelight filters are made to block UV radiation in addition to blue and green light? That might be part of your problem. Just use a good ol' glowing tungsten bulb with the wattage that your safelight is rated for and you should be fine!

The problem is that incandescent bulbs are going to be getting a lot harder to find. Some jurisdictions are banning them, so people are buying them by the hundreds to make sure they have enough to last the next 50 years. CFL's I think are a short term solution, and I expect that high output LEDs are the future.

The question is, where can you get a safe light that can use CFL or LED bulbs that is safe for paper. One also wonders, which is going to be better for the future, a single high output LED, or a string of low output LED's that give the same amount of light. For example, a single 5w LED, or 5 1w LEDs strung together over say a 1m cord. If building a new darkroom, I would probably build a back splash that has a space behind at the top, and mount a red or amber LED string behind, and use white or light grey walls, so that the light that reaches paper is always reflected. Thinking more about that, also put a similar string of white lights for when you want normal room light.

archphoto · May 30, 2009

I would prefer 5x 1W because you can spread them out, thus giving you a bigger surface of light.

LED aray's are quite easy to design and assamble: the voltage drop over a LED is 1.4V, so 5 LED's in series = 5x1.4=7V
If you have a power supply that has say 12V, you will need a voltage drop of 5V.

5V/the current you want = the resistor value you need.
With this resistor you can allso set the current though the LED's, effectivly dimming them.

And there is allways a possibility of using an extra red filter in front of them if paper gets fogged.

I will be setting up my own darkroom this year and I am planning to do some experimenting.

With spot-LED's you can direct the light onto the ceiling, thus giving a more difuse light.

Peter

rmolson · May 30, 2009

I have experienced fine black edge fog on some batches of Ilford Multigrade which may have been stress cutting. And as I use a wide border too it was no problem, But this was such a gross edge fog I started checking and found I had multiple problems.I never thought to check the actual light output of the CLF which I could have done with my Luna Pro, The green folks may know about energy conservation but not beans about photography! I have since switched to a 71/2 watt lamp and a Red1A safelight filter (Just to be on the safe side) over my paper cutter and in the process of gluing a sheet of ruby lith over the face of the TimeOLite. I know Ruby blocks UV, from my days in graphic arts.

markbau · May 30, 2009

Have you checked that you haven't got a leak in the safelight housing, that's what it sounds like to me.

clayne · Jul 20, 2009

I just picked up one of those Premier 10x12" OC safelights from Freestyle. Tell me, is something wrong with me or is there another issue? I can *barely* see anything! Darkroom is in single-width garage, had the light mounted on the side of the wall, above my head. I can see the faint orange glow from the housing when I turn it on but I seriously doubt I could even cast a shadow in there let alone walk around without smashing into something. Is this normal for this light? It uses a 25w frosted bulb and a simple OC filter over the front.

Steve Smith · Jul 20, 2009

wogster said:
CFL's I think are a short term solution, and I expect that high output LEDs are the future.

My thoughts exactly. We are already beginning to see LED compatible versions of the mini tungsten halogen downlighter bulbs we have here. I suspect LED replacements for normal household incandescent lamps will follow soon.

Steve.

CBG · Jul 20, 2009

wogster said:
The problem is that incandescent bulbs are going to be getting a lot harder to find. Some jurisdictions are banning them, so people are buying them by the hundreds to make sure they have enough to last the next 50 years. CFL's I think are a short term solution, and I expect that high output LEDs are the future.

The question is, where can you get a safe light that can use CFL or LED bulbs that is safe for paper.

I'm stocking up on bulbs that don't have a good equivalent both for household use and for the darkroom. That said, so far I'm having sucess using a red LED as a safelite. Not having test it fully, I'm wimping out and using it behind the red safelight filter as a stopgap. I will test for just how safe they are without any filtering in future, and will post here on the results, but for the moment, I'm getting good results and am happy so far. LEDs run very cool. I can't detect any warmth in the safelight housing after hours of running time.

Also I am getting good results so far using green and UV and blue LEDs for split grade printing.

fotch · Jul 20, 2009

clayne said:
I just picked up one of those Premier 10x12" OC safelights from Freestyle. Tell me, is something wrong with me or is there another issue? I can *barely* see anything! Darkroom is in single-width garage, had the light mounted on the side of the wall, above my head. I can see the faint orange glow from the housing when I turn it on but I seriously doubt I could even cast a shadow in there let alone walk around without smashing into something. Is this normal for this light? It uses a 25w frosted bulb and a simple OC filter over the front.

Not normal. If the safelight is mounted about 4 ft. above the counter top, should throw a lot of light. Are you waiting for your eyes to adjust?

clayne · Jul 20, 2009

fotch said:
Not normal. If the safelight is mounted about 4 ft. above the counter top, should throw a lot of light. Are you waiting for your eyes to adjust?

In truth i'm probably not waiting long enough. It just seems extremely dim. I might need to relocate it as it's probably too high, as well. Will play around with things and report back. I can't imagine it's hard to screw up a safelight from the factory.

wogster · Jul 20, 2009

Steve Smith said:
My thoughts exactly. We are already beginning to see LED compatible versions of the mini tungsten halogen downlighter bulbs we have here. I suspect LED replacements for normal household incandescent lamps will follow soon.

Steve.

Of course 10 years from now, when almost every light you own is an LED, and the things are getting cheaper then dirt, they will find some problem with them, and we will go through a whole conversion to something else they can charge $9 a bulb for.

The real issue though is things like my 30 year old General enlarger, it uses an ordinary looking, but very large incandescent bulb, but I think the wattage is something oddball (I think 95 or 125 or something like that). Will I be able to find a bulb that will work with this thing, if I ever get it running again..... One of these days I need to dig the bulb out and get the numbers off it and see if I can find something compatible, before incandescent bulbs disappear completely.

clayne · Jul 20, 2009

wogster said:
Of course 10 years from now, when almost every light you own is an LED, and the things are getting cheaper then dirt, they will find some problem with them, and we will go through a whole conversion to something else they can charge $9 a bulb for.

The real issue though is things like my 30 year old General enlarger, it uses an ordinary looking, but very large incandescent bulb, but I think the wattage is something oddball (I think 95 or 125 or something like that). Will I be able to find a bulb that will work with this thing, if I ever get it running again..... One of these days I need to dig the bulb out and get the numbers off it and see if I can find something compatible, before incandescent bulbs disappear completely.

I doubt they'll disappear completely. Reduced yes, but not entirely gone. BTW: may be a stupid question, but you can't use one that's just 5 watts off, like 90 or 120?

archphoto · Jul 20, 2009

For enlarging 95 or 100W makes no diference, between 125 and 100W you will have to measure.
This is the trouble with older equipment and bulbs we will face sooner or later and we better stock-up as long as these bulbs are available, LED's comming up or not.

LED's will replace our lamps eventualy, esp if you look at the cost of them comming from China.
I never cared for the green fluorecent lights anyway.

For fridges their standard lamps will remain available, even under the European rules, so we will be able to use those for our safe-lights for times to come.

Peter

wogster · Jul 20, 2009

clayne said:
I doubt they'll disappear completely. Reduced yes, but not entirely gone. BTW: may be a stupid question, but you can't use one that's just 5 watts off, like 90 or 120?

Most likely, it's a screw in bulb, but I need to have a good look at it, to see the exact wattage. I am sure a physically smaller bulb of the same wattage would also be fine.

wogster · Jul 20, 2009

archphoto said:
For enlarging 95 or 100W makes no diference, between 125 and 100W you will have to measure.
This is the trouble with older equipment and bulbs we will face sooner or later and we better stock-up as long as these bulbs are available, LED's comming up or not.

LED's will replace our lamps eventualy, esp if you look at the cost of them comming from China.
I never cared for the green fluorecent lights anyway.

For fridges their standard lamps will remain available, even under the European rules, so we will be able to use those for our safe-lights for times to come.

Peter

Expect that new fridges will probably come with some form of LED lighting in them, probably using a proprietary light that must be purchased from the manufacturer for $147.50, even though it's really a standard 50 cent LED with a proprietary connector. Eventually the old bulbs will disappear, but probably not for at least 30 years or so. Where I can't see LEDs being used much would be ovens, I doubt they could handle the heat.

archphoto · Jul 20, 2009

So oven-lights it will be......
As for those connectors: they can be replaced..... verry easily, so no need to spend that kind of money.

Peter

bob100684 · Jul 20, 2009

rmolson said:
Safelights

I just opened a new box of Oriental Seagull Fiber to run a few simple tests. I gather it is faster than Multigrade. I had edge fog coming out my ears Not gray fog,. black d max fog!. And that was from just unwrapping and removing the paper from the plastic bag.
Started running safelight tests. 15 watt CFLs are not the same as 15 watt incandescent regardless of what the environmentalists are saying . Switched to 15 watt plain bulb At 3 foot,.but still had some fog at 3 minutes, finally got down to a 7 ½ watt bulb and figured the filter was probably just too old. Dug out an old Kodak Red1A and it seemed safe The price on new 5 ½ OC filters is out of sight...But my beautiful practically new $45.00 TimeOlite which is 12 inches or less away from the work counter also was fogging the paper .I discovered. Cant move it any further away and still reach it, I have been covering the face of the dial with a black cardboard shroud when handling film because of the glow. I ripped out my fluorescents at one time but it made no difference So now I am using an old WWII TimeOlite from a blue print machine I found at a garage sale, and it doesnt fog anything Does anybody have any idea of how to remove the stuff on the dial to kill the glow.And where to find new safelight filters or substitutes that dont cost the farm After all its not the principle, its the money!

the wattage of a bulb just measures its energy consumption. I think its lumens? that is light output.

Safelights

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