Safe to mix refuse chemicals?

Jin Grill · Aug 20, 2008

Hi,

Ive been using various different developers as I was experimenting with negative contrast and different B&W films.

Can I safely refuse the different developers in the same container, and will the silver recover site accept this concoction?

Also, while I'm at it, can I mix my fixer in with it as well?

The chemicals in use: D-19, D-76, t-max developer, Dektol, Kodafix.
Although I provided the names of the chemicals I am using, this is a general question regarding the safety of mixing developers (and/or fixer).

thanks for your time,

~Jin

bdial · Aug 20, 2008

Only the fixer has silver, you can mix the developers for disposal if you want. I'd keep the fixer separate though. Only the fixer (because of the silver) is particularly toxic, however.
You can also separate the silver in the fix, there are long threads in here on that topic.

AgX · Aug 20, 2008

I cannot speak for Canada.

But typically developer baths will be incenerated, fixing baths and blix baths de-silvered.

In Europe there are three refuse codes, for developers, fixers, blixes resp.
In any case silvercontaining baths should be seperated from non-silvercontaining baths (the silver content of developers is negligible).
As you don't use blix you don't even have to inquire whether also to keep fixer and blix apart.

Marc . · Aug 20, 2008

AgX said:
...
In Europe there are three refuse codes, for developers, fixers, blixes resp.
...

Hello,

Agx, what is blix please ?

Marc

AgX · Aug 20, 2008

Sorry, `Blix´ means bleach-fixing bath. Thus the combination of bleaching and fixing in many colour processes.

Marc . · Aug 20, 2008

Thanks.
I believe this is an E-6 bath, not our usual B&W chemicals.

Marc

Jin Grill · Aug 20, 2008

AgX, so where do I take my used developer if it dosnt contain silver?

jin

removed account4 · Aug 20, 2008

Jin Grill said:
AgX, so where do I take my used developer if it dosnt contain silver?

jin

your local sanitation department should have a household waste
colleciton day, just put it in a bucket and take it to them.
or contact your local waste hauler to find out what it costs to have
all your chemicals removed.

some areas only worry about ph with everything but fix. they suggest that as
long as the chemicals are ph neutral and dilute you can "drain them" ...

it might be worth a call to find out what the regulations are in your area.

Ian Grant · Aug 21, 2008

When I worked in precious metal recovery we dealt with many labs B&W & Colour, and the normal practice was to de-silver the relevant fixers, bleach-fix, wash water etc then mix with the spent developer before disposal to the foul water/sewage system. Where this wasn't possible or practical we took the chemicals for treatment and licensed disposal, at our own factories. This was standard practice in the UK & most of the EU, and also the US & Canada.

However all the sites had permission from the relevant authorities. Customers (UK) did have occasional problems at a local level, but I overcame these by going straight to the senior chemist/officer at each relevant authority. Even in Central London labs are allowed to discharge their chemicals, although with larger labs the levels are monitored very carefully. In the US only a very small number of areas didn't allow discharge. Permissions are onlys given after considering the potential impact a labs predicted maximum discharge might have on their local sewage treatment plant.

Ian

AgX · Aug 21, 2008

Ian,

The procedure described by you would make authorities over here run havoc (at least they say so…). Here not even an amateur may dispose of spent developer baths via the sewage.

Jin,

Concerning (personal) safety, there is no reason why not to mix your different. spent developers before bringing to your special waste centre.

The only critical procedure in our field would be one adviced by lford for waste treatment of their Ilfochrome chemistry, but you don’t use it (others should follow the guidelines Ilford gives in their datasheet).

Ian Grant · Aug 21, 2008

AgX said:
Ian,

The procedure described by you would make authorities over here run havoc (at least they say so). Here not even an amateur may dispose of spent developer baths via the sewage.

Perhaps but I've seen how Germany works

At Photokina everyone sorted & put their rubbish in the right colour coded bins, religiously. Then a rubbish collector came and emptied the bins into one mixing them up . . . that's the German way . . . .

In the UK and US there are advisory committees made up from the manufacturers & environmental agencies, water treatment authorities and waste disposal companies. They set up guidelines for treatment & disposal. (COPPICE in the UK).

Yes I know a couple of EU countries have different regulations. But you work to your local regulations.

Ian

AgX · Aug 21, 2008

The German way..., yes you got it.

(Actually, this private sorting is also a financial issue as some `heaps´ are free, or rather payed in advance, others will be paid by volume. I got 12 heaps at home. Whether this all makes really sense in the end is of course questionable.)

2F/2F · Aug 21, 2008

You can mix your spent stop bath with your b/w developer and dump it down the drain safely and legally. The developer keeps the acidic stop bath from harming your pipes. Therefore, stop bath should not be dumped without mixing with developer. However, dumping straight developer is fine.

In any case, always chase the chemicals with enough water to flush out your own pipes completely and to dilute the chemicals so they are easier on the city's pipes as well.

Fixer is environmentally unsafe and is illegal to dump, as is selenium toner. At one time Kodak made in-line filters that would allow you to dump fixer down the drain in home lab quantities. I do not know if these are still made, but even if they are not, all they were, basically, was a cartridge full of steel wool. So you can run your fixer through steel wool and dump it.

As for selenium, it must be taken to a haz-mat center.

I have never been able to find out exactly how much steel wool, what grade of steel wool, how much you need for a given quantity of fixer, how long you have to filter it, how long it is good for before needing replacement, or how to properly dispose of the sludgy steel wool.

Nor do I know *exactly* how to handle C-41 or E-6 chemicals. I dump the developers and final rinses, handle the fixer the same way I handle my b/w fixer, and have yet to toss any bleach.

All this is from a Kodak Haz-Mat publication that I have, which only covers b/w materials. Wish I could find a similar publication covering C-41 and E-6 chems.

Mike Wilde · Aug 21, 2008

2F/2F said:
You can mix your spent stop bath with your b/w developer and dump it down the drain safely and legally.

That only covers bringing the pH in line. The other issue to consider is the BOD - is how much oxygen does the thing want to tie up as it breaks down.

For me, this entalis leaving the developer to oxidize before pH neutralizing - an old jug, left in the corner with a fish tank pump and bubbler stone speeds the process up considerably. A second stone and air line I reserve use to re-invigorate 'stale' bleach, which wants to be aerated to bring it back into spec.

Paul Verizzo · Aug 21, 2008

The question no one has asked, and I think it paramount before all discussion, is how much? There's a world of difference of impacts on the ecosystem, sewage plants, etc between a a liter of whatever now and then, and discharge from a commercial laboratory.

Stop bath is not acidic enough to worry about, hey, we use vinegar sometimes on our salads, right? And some drain cleaners are acidic, far lower pH than a piddly, diluted stop bath. And Coke is, what, pH 4?

Fixer, overlooking the silver component, is not an environmental problem. Sodium thiosuphate is used to remove chlorine in fish tanks, pools, and drinking water! Ammonium thiosulphate is used as a source of sulfur in agriculture.

As to the silver, quantity is a vital factor to determine how to be rid of fixer. Silver is a natural part of the environment, so a gram here and a gram there isn't going to cause the earth to wobble. I remember when I lived in Colorado and Kodak opened their plant in Windsor, near Greeley. Seems they had a problem with silver discharge. Well, the real problem was the water coming into the plant from the Cache La Poudre watershed was loaded with silver. IIRC, Kodak cleaned up the water cleaner than Mother Nature did.

When my father was a photographer and we had a septic system, everything went into the tank except for silver. That he removed by a resin on wooden blocks and then sold for much needed cash. We never, ever had an issue with the septic system and the micro organisms.

Sodium hydroxide, Drano, will blind us in a strong concentration. But we send it down the tubes, no one cares, because the amount of chemical becomes so diluted on the way to the sewage plant that it just doesn't matter.

Same with the small quantities that many of us deal with.

2F/2F · Aug 21, 2008

All I posted was simply repeating a Kodak data sheet. I don't claim any knowledge other than what I read there. I certainly have ignored other data sheets in the past, but on environmental safety and law, I think I will stick to the sheet...because I care.

removed account4 · Aug 21, 2008

it is best to follow the law where one lives rather than go by
what kodak suggests works. in some places
it is illegal to dump any effluent down one's drain, whether
it goes into the sewer system or in the septic tank.

2F/2F · Aug 21, 2008

"it is best to follow the law where one lives rather than go by
what kodak suggests works. in some places
it is illegal to dump any effluent down one's drain, whether
it goes into the sewer system or in the septic tank."

...and this is also stated by Kodak in the data sheet!

removed account4 · Aug 21, 2008

2F/2F said:
"it is best to follow the law where one lives rather than go by
what kodak suggests works. in some places
it is illegal to dump any effluent down one's drain, whether
it goes into the sewer system or in the septic tank."

...and this is also stated by Kodak in the data sheet!

thanks!

john

Paul Verizzo · Aug 22, 2008

Laws, datasheets........and reality.

Yes, we all have different personalities that get reflected in how we approach matters. We can see such differences on any blog or forum, given enought time and topic. Some will not use grocery store borax or soda nor will use volumetric measurements, others will and do.

My sister, a sheriff's officer, is amazed that I can cook without following any package directions to the letter. For that matter, cook at all from my gut. Bad choice of words. From intuition and knowledge.

Kodak and their lawyers have different reasons not based on reality to suggest over-caution regardless of volume. Commonly known as CYA. Communities are led by citizens who are not chemists and take the advice of yet other governmental organizations like the EPA, which in turn seeks some theoretical perfection. See my comment above about Kodak having to clean its discharge to cleaner than it received it! A stretch of highway is deemed by the engineers, or statute, to have a safe speed of 35 mph. You know that it is perfectly safe at 55mph. Who do you believe?

My disposal philosophy, at the quantities I dispose of (which in itself is part of the philosophy) will have zero impact on the sewage plant or the environment. Those who wish to follow a rigid regimen of disposal processes will also have zero impact on the sewage plant or the environment. One method is easy, the other harder.

(Please note that the sewage plant here pumps its tertiary treated effluent right past my house on the bayou! What goes down the drain, comes back. So, I'm probably even a bit more sensative to the issue than most!)

One could also let liquid photochems evaporate and scrape the residues into a plastic bag and then into the landfill. Of course, you'll still want to rinse your trays......... If there is ever any evidence based proof that my philosophy has been wrong, I will immediately admit the error of my ways, change them, and make penance with the manatees (which seem healthier with each passing year.)

removed account4 · Aug 22, 2008

i too cook without a recipe, and do most everything by the seat of my pants,
until it comes to pouring chemicals down the drain.
i watched a guy infront of a machine shop dumping fluorescent green liquid down a storm drain
the drains with a fish painted on them, that say " go to sea " or something like that.
i am sure he thought it was fine to dump his waste into the drain, even while folks like me watched him.

it is best to follow the law where one lives rather than go by
what kodak suggests works, or what people on a the internet suggest is "fine".
in some places it is illegal to dump any effluent down one's drain, whether
it goes into the sewer system or in the septic tank.

sorry to hijack your thread jin,
good luck separating the wheat from chaffe ...

Paul Verizzo · Aug 22, 2008

jnanian said:
i too cook without a recipe, and do most everything by the seat of my pants,
until it comes to pouring chemicals down the drain.
i watched a guy infront of a machine shop dumping fluorescent green liquid down a storm drain
the drains with a fish painted on them, that say " go to sea " or something like that.
i am sure he thought it was fine to dump his waste into the drain, even while folks like me watched him.

it is best to follow the law where one lives rather than go by
what kodak suggests works, or what people on a the internet suggest is "fine".
in some places it is illegal to dump any effluent down one's drain, whether
it goes into the sewer system or in the septic tank.

sorry to hijack your thread jin,
good luck separating the wheat from chaffe ...

I'm not sure what your green fluorescent guy experience has to do with me or the topic generally.

Laws and codes often do not reflect fact and reality. In most states in America for a hundred years the law prevented dissemination of knowledge about birth control, or the distribution of the same. Many normal sexual experiences and habits were similarly illegal in many places. Was the law right?

If I had gallons of nasties to dispose of, no, I wouldn't put it into the system. But a quart of something maybe once a month is not a terrible thing to do.

Safe to mix refuse chemicals?

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