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Safe concentration of Acetic Acid

RattyMouse said:
Right, the discussion devolved into MSDS' after several mocked the usefulness of these very important documents. No one has made any valid points as far as I can see that discredits in any way the usefulness of MSDS'.
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I have on multiple occasions here made the statement, that an MSDS is useless (and renders others useless) if it recommends safety showers for people exposed to Glucose and rock salt. If my English was too bad to bring that point across, Ken Nadvornick repeated my point in better wording in the same thread. The last sentence in your quote is particularly irritating given how hard you questioned our reading comprehension.
 
RattyMouse said:
Acetone is VERY nasty stuff. I pity the poor nail salon ladies that sit exposed to those fumes day after day.
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Most I've seen wear masks while working. And those putting nail polish on are exposed to nastier chemicals than acetone, though many are being taken out of the formulations because of consumer outcry.

My story was to comment on wearing gloves while removing nail polish from your own fingernails - kinda difficult, yet that's what the MSDS would request.
 
Acetone is commonly used as a solvent because it has a low toxicity. Its health risk is rated as 1 (slight).
 
pdeeh said:
And of course there are risks attached to commonly consumed items that an MSDS won't refer to ... such as the (clinically well attested) increased risk of oesephagal cancers associated with long term excessive use of alcohol.
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The MSDS for Ethanol also doesn't mention that its vapors have a very detrimental effect on recovering alcoholics, sending them straight back into addiction hell. This effect is a lot more common and realistic than some of the issues described in these MSDS. If you work for a medium to large sized company, don't think for a second that you don't have your share of alcoholics working there across all ranks.
 
I think it's misleading to suggest that a whiff of ethanol will trigger immediate relapse in a recovering alcoholic; and I speak as someone with a fund of professional clinical experience of helping those with chemical addictions into recovery and supporting them in recovery. I'm not mentioning personal experience to initiate some sort of dick-swinging contest - we have far too many of those already at APUG - but simply to be clear that I'm speaking from experience and not simply opining out of my arse (not that I am implying either that you are doing the latter Rudeofus!)

Being around using or drinking, the smells and tastes of drugs and alcohol (even if merely imagined) are well known as significant triggers for relapse, but to say that a single instance of such a trigger to someone in recovery will inevitably trigger a relapse is simply not true, as anyone who has sustained their recovery can attest.

But we are now well into the wilds of offtopicland.

However, as the thread started off on the subject of Acetic acid .. I did once work in a treatment centre where a foreign national with a poor grasp of English was being detoxed prior to treatment. He wandered out of the centre one day and found himself in a local shop, where he could just about read the words "red wine" on a bottle label ... the temptation was too great in his fragile state, and he bought half a dozen bottles.

Only to be disappointed when he opened one to find that the contents were red wine vinegar ...
 
RobC said:
And later you say:



Please learn to do your research properly.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer...cinogens/known-and-probable-human-carcinogens

The MSDS I posted a link to is clearly wrong and you trust them.
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I am truly amazed at some of the classifications in this list.

At the same time, I am amazed at the chemicals still in use in food that we knew were pretty nasty 50 or more years ago.

This whole classification including the one at Cancer.org and also the MSDS sheets in general are truly a mess.

PE
 
In fairness the msds for alcohol was from 2001 and I think the classification for alcohol being a carcigonen is more recent but I haven't looked into it in detail.

The point is that you can't trust anything you grab from a supplier or website without doing some considerable research to find what the current state of play is. Classifications change all the time.

So who is now going to quit drinking beer ?
 
Here I cannot seem to quote your definition from the first post in this thread but I refer to it,
I have in the past sent stuff out for toxicology testing which IMO would be needed to give an adequate reply.
It's not that expensive but IMO something of the order of tens of thousand dollars for this case.
 

My UK photo chem shop no longer lists it. Yes I can attempt to buy it as an industrial chemical via my company, but Ive no way of storing it. My lock up 50m (55 Yards) from house has incompatible chemicals already.
I don't need it anyway for prints as I use diluted vinegar which is always in the house as a cooking chemical/condiment.

Lots of other photo chemicals have vanished from my local photo shop.
 
Gerald C Koch said:
In Europe pre-EU, concentrations above 80% had to be marked as flammable. IIRC this was the concentration that Agfa sold for darkroom use. Don't know what today's EU regulations are. Probably anything stronger than what you would put on a salad.
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Pickling vinegar is still available at about 18%, (or was the last time I looked in grocery shop).
But we used to be able to buy Borax as a wash aid, in grocery shop not anymore.
 
@pdeeh: obviously you have more knowledge about this field, but I guess you'd still agree that the process of dissolving some compound in 99% Ethanol will likely trigger a relapse, especially if this process is performed regularly. Either way, I think potential for substance abuse is something which should be noted as a warning in an MSDS.

@Xmas: at least in Central Europe you can easily get highly concentrated Acetic Acid. When I went to my local chems store, I asked them "what's the highest concentration of Acetic Acid that is moderately safe to handle?" and they gave me 80%. The Photo Formulary folks, who presumably do most of their business via mail order, sell 99%. Acetic Acid is a basic staple in photochemistry, since it forms no insoluble salts with any cations you will encounter, and if handled correctly is moderately harmless in concentrations below 30%. If you really got rid of Acetic Acid in your chem closet, you either don't do much home brewing, or you probably substituted it with something more harmful in the long run.

@Alan: if I were the first one to do toxicological testing of Acetic Acid, I would proudly plunk down the cash and write a ground breaking article about the results. As it stands, I have reason to believe that this topic has been thoroughly investigated, and Gerald Koch already provided some valuable information. As it stands, 80% is good for storage, whereas 25-30% would be preferable for regular use.
 

In a chemistry lab you would handle in a fume cupboard, if you are at home outside in back yard is best, with a clear path to cold faucet.
 
Xmas said:
Pickling vinegar is still available at about 18%, (or was the last time I looked in grocery shop).
But we used to be able to buy Borax as a wash aid, in grocery shop not anymore.
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Here in the US borax is readily available. Perhaps because there are vast deposits of it near Death Valley. A few days ago I passed a huge display of boxes in my local super-market. The MSDS sheets I have looked at list no carcinogenic or mutagenic dangers. AFAIK most boron compounds are a direct danger only to citrus trees and cockroaches.

I have read that if you have lived long enough, not having died of some other cause, you will eventually die of cancer. It seems a primary cause is the fragility of our genes rather than what we are exposed to. Not every alcoholic succumbs to esophageal cancer.
 
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pdeeh said:
That's not true xmas except at silverprint.
You can buy Dichromates in whatever quantity you like from many other suppliers with a phone call or a mouse click. Process supplies to name but one
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I have my doubts, as Silverprint do stock and will supply but only with caveats, I don't think the caveats are there for HAZMAT.

Process supplies are whole salers primarily and also don't update their web site fastidiously. I'll check and report.
 
Xmas said:
Process supplies are whole salers primarily and also don't update their web site fastidiously. I'll check and report.
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I can't speak of its range of chemicals but on a U.K. based analogue forum Process Supplies are one of the sponsors and some of the users vote Process Supplies the best retailer. The users are all individuals who are hobbyists only so it certainly caters for them

pentaxuser
 
Rudeofus said:
How about Stannous Chloride and Potassium Hydroxide then?
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Stannous Chloride has vanished from list
Potassium hydroxide is still available and I have a 1lb tub to hand.
 


(MSDS)
Ethanol
snip
Carcinogenicity
:
Long term consumption of alcoholic beverages demonstrates an increase in the occurrence of breast cancer and
colorectal cancer. Malignant tumours of the oral cavity, Pharynx, Larynx, Oesophagus and Liver is also causally
related to the consumption of alcoholic beverages.
Some studies have shown an excess incidence of
laryngeal cancer over the expected from exposure to synthetic alcohol, with Diethyl Sulphate probably being the
causative agent.
snip
 

This is what happens when you add another mindless bureaucracy to the mix. Of course "mindless bureaucracy" is an oxymoron. Think of Charles Dicken's Barnacle family that controls the Circumlocution Office. Surely a valid model for the EU.
 
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Xmas said:
I have my doubts, as Silverprint do stock and will supply but only with caveats, I don't think the caveats are there for HAZMAT.

Process supplies are whole salers primarily and also don't update their web site fastidiously. I'll check and report.
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You don't need to check Xmas, I've bought from them recently as has I believe paulc_5x4, and I have the dichromate to prove it.*

They may or may not be wholesalers as well as retailers, but they are certainly very happy to deal with individuals, and my experience is that their website is updated regularly.

Quite a lot of exotic chemicals can be had from other suppliers (e.g. the newly established Wet Plate Supplies in Cambs), and there are other online suppliers (e.g. Atomscientific/APCPure) who will quite happily supply all manner of stuff to individuals (as I can attest), including Stannous chloride.

What has been proving increasingly difficult is more particularly "common" photographic chemicals such as Metol and HQ, the price of which has rocketed and, until the advent of WetPlate Supplies, Metol had become the sole preserve of Silverprint.



*(I keep in my spice rack, of course, with the lid ajar)
 
I wouldn't take at face value all the complaints that "The EU" control all our lives and have reduced the power of sovereign states to rubber stamping Brussels' decisions.

It is a lot more complicated than that, and all EU governments still rule their own countries.

The narrative of the awfulness of the EU and of "big government" is owned and directed by vocal and energetic economic libertarians, but their views do not represent the only or accurate depiction of reality.

Europe is not the US (thank goodness) and nor do most EU states aspire to the version of democracy and capitalistic enterprise venerated and promulgated by the US.

However, this is a thread about Acetic acid and not about political philosophy, so perhaps we should all shut up about the latter before the thread gets closed.

Or perhaps that would be the best thing?
 
Gerald C Koch said:
Here in the US borax is readily available.
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I can get it as a photo chemical but it costs a lot more. Withdrawn as wash aid in UK as we treat and recycle water.
Gerald C Koch said:
Not every alcoholic succumbs to esophageal cancer.
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True
a) Liver can be destroyed by the metabolite Ethyl Aldehyde so you need transplant and anti rejection, you need to avoid that to get C of liver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJwO4dx0Ojc
George was brought up on the same estate and school campus.
b) You can get cancer most every else mouth, throat, etc., I think you are safe from breast, but 50% arnt.
c) Some die when they go cold turkey without adequate medication

Lots of my friends and colleagues.
 
Xmas said:
I can get it as a photo chemical but it costs a lot more. .
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You can buy in 20kg buckets from eBay, shipped all the way from exotic Essex, or if you're really hot for it, by the metric tonne from Stoke-On-Trent (and the latter is the famous US brand, 20 Mule Taam to boot)
 
Xmas said:
Stannous Chloride has vanished from list
Potassium hydroxide is still available and I have a 1lb tub to hand.
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You can get both from Fototechnik Suvatlar. The fact that some store took it off their shelves means little in this context, it's not like Stannous Chloride is such a commonly used compound in photo chemistry, and E6 is not the most popular process either.

Also, the fact that Borax can no longer be poured down the drain in massive amounts and is therefore no longer available in drug stores says nothing about its availability to photo amateurs. It's a minor inconvenience, not a road block. Most recipes use a few grams per liter, so its price is inconsequential.

Alan Johnson said:
It rather depends what you mean by thoroughly investigated ,eg if happy with something like the following:
http://www.vdh.virginia.gov/epidemiology/DEE/PublicHealthToxicology/documents/pdf/aceticacid.PDF
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To people warning about potential long term health effect of Acetic Acid I say the same thing as to people warning about mobile phones: there is an ongoing voluntary study with a sample size in excess of one billion about these effects running for over a decade with no obvious conclusions. As David Plainview would have said: "Those areas have been drilled."
 
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