RZ67: Understanding Flash Triggering

gus.

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Because I sure don't!

I'm having the toughest time understanding the RZs hotshoe and/or lens flash sync terminal characteristics. Thankfully I've now realized my RB lenses don't have the RZ contacts. (Derp!) Using RZ lens now. When/how is it prompted to trigger? Also, how can one test flash w/out running through film? I've tried testing on M (multiple-exposure) to avoid that but, again, wonder if that affects the flash triggering. I know I have a good battery. (It's new and I get a solid red light when slide's in.) I know RB is coldshoe and RZ is hotshoe.
I'm trying to wirelessly trigger my Yongnuo 560IIIs. Here's the setup I would (ideally) like to use:



^YN560TX(manual flash controller) on hotshoe to fire my YN603IIIs. Well, even trying to wedge the pins in with a knife it wasn't happening. So, I tried a hotshoe adapter:



Still no hotshoe spark. Dead hotshoe perhaps? If I take a voltmeter to the hotshoe can someone tell me what it should read? Also, I've read that modern speedlites require more juice than older lights? Possible? I kept trying. Began focusing on the lens' x-sync:



Still nothing. I had a brief moment of hope when I ran the cord directly to the flash terminal and the flash would intermittently fire when the cord would wiggle.



What does the N mean on the lens? T is long exposure yes? When I fire on M I have to turn that switch back over or it won't allow me to reset the shutter.
What the heck am I doing wrong!? Thanks in advance!
 
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gus.

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Yeah, I have it. Boy. What gives. Guess I need to get my hands on another RZ lens? Maybe even a PW to see if that behaves differently. Your RZ hotshoe/lens sync fires with every actuation?
 

mweintraub

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I use the RZ with CTR-301P and they work fine. I haven't tried them with the RF-603N I have.

BTW, in your photo, the RF-603C is off, wanted to make sure you had it on.

Try this.
I see you have a PC-PC sync cable. Do you have a flash with a PC sync connection? If so, connect the flash directly to the lens. Does it fire the flash then? If not, there's something screwy somewhere. This should work as a baseline, a simple corded flash.

If it works: connect that pc-1/8" cable to the hotshoe adapter (do not mount it on the camera's hotshoe, let it dangle). Attach the flash to that hotshoe adapter. Does it fire? If not, problem with that cable/adapter/flash hotshoe.

If it works: take same cable and hotshoe adapter and RF-603C and a flash on another RF-603C or one with it built in. Press the test button. If that worked, try the RZ again.

Not sure about the YN560-TX working on a non-TTL hotshoe.
 

MattKing

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Does the manual flash controller work with a cord, for attachment to cameras with a pc synch terminal but without a hot shoe?

If so, use that cord, and attach it to the lens pc synch terminal.
 
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gus.

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Hey! Thanks for your response.

mweintraub said:
I use the RZ with CTR-301P and they work fine. I haven't tried them with the RF-603N I have.

BTW, in your photo, the RF-603C is off, wanted to make sure you had it on.
Click to expand...

Ha, thanks. The 560TX won't even slide in and the 603 will only after wedging the pins in with a knife.


I do! And I did. When I did so the flash would flicker intermittently with cable movement. That got me excited! They were talking to each other. Think I managed to fire it with the shutter once or twice too. Then it stopped. That brought me to question the lens settings: the N and the T. (T is long exposure but I'm still lost on the N.)


Not sure about the YN560-TX working on a non-TTL hotshoe.
Click to expand...

Oh, wow. That's an interesting point! Thanks so much. Will report back.
 
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gus.

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MattKing said:
Does the manual flash controller work with a cord, for attachment to cameras with a pc synch terminal but without a hot shoe?

If so, use that cord, and attach it to the lens pc synch terminal.
Click to expand...

Good call. Will try as well. Thanks!
 

MattKing

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The T-N switch is covered in the manual .

T is for mechanically operated time exposures. N allows the shutter to be controlled by the electronics in the camera. Nothing particularly relevant to use with flash.

It sounds to me like the pc synch on the lens needs service. It may be something simple like a bent terminal, or something more complex like something electrical either in the lens or in the connection between the lens and camera.

Try cleaning the contacts on the lens and camera body.
 

mweintraub

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N means normal. That should be on for normal operation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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gus.

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Color me embarrassed!



Thanks for the contact cleaning tips. Isopropyl alcohol yes?
 

MattKing

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Try a clean, soft pencil eraser first.
 

film_man

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gus. said:
When I did so the flash would flicker intermittently with cable movement.
Click to expand...

Which probably means that either the cable is broken or the port on the lens is loose.

As someone else said, make sure your flash triggers can be used on a non-TTL shoe. Some units just won't fire if they are on an incompatible shoe.

As for your questions about my camera, I have a RB67, the shoe on the side is just a holder, no firing capability so I have to use the lens port.
 

baachitraka

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RF-603 may not work without a mod. Seems yours is C means Canon and it expects a signal from the camera to turn on its Transmitter.

Mod: https://youtu.be/Iiy4zGEt5xU?t=423

You can try RF-603 II, if you don't want to mod it.
 
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gus.

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mweintraub said:
Totally forgot about this! YES. This is, I bet, part of the problem. The flickering is a separate issue.
Click to expand...

Sure enough! First, thanks for everybody's advice with my situation. Well, I noticed my lens mirror-up socket had not fully seated back into place after removing the cable release and thought I had found the cause of the x-sync not firing. Unfortunately, still no fire from the lens after that. However, relieving THAT issue now allowed the hotshoe to fire! This setup ended up working after trying everything else:



SO... I think what was happening is being unaware that the mirror-up socket had not fully retracted I wasn't completing the second (lens) shutter release to fire the hotshoe. After dong so releasing the shutter was firing the hotshoe!

As you gents stated the RF603 will only respond if getting signal from the camera. Works on my Canon A2 but no tamale on the RZ. BUT... the 560TX works great! Best case scenario really as I can remotely control three speedlites with it. Ultimately I'll have to see what's up with my lens sync socket.

Thanks again everybody!
 

M Carter

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This has been interesting - I have an RB setup and for years it made my living in the film days. Just returned to it for B&W the last couple years.

Back then, I used a Quantum Radio Slave 4ti (I think?) which was state of the art (and about 6x the size of the current stuff). (they still manufacture that system though).

For my Nikon DSLRs, I use a cheap ebay radio slave - $30 or so and works fine, never had to move up to the pricey stuff. But… the RB lenses won't trigger it. Maybe an occasional fire at 1/30th. My old Radio Slave still works fine (but man, it feels massive in this day & age). The newer (cheapo) unit I have isn't nikon or canon-centric… wondering what gives??
 
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gus.

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I should add that the hotshoe adapter is only in place because I was unable to wedge the 560TX's contact pins into the RZ shoe.
 
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gus.

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film_man said:
As for your questions about my camera, I have a RB67, the shoe on the side is just a holder, no firing capability so I have to use the lens port.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm so relieved my hotshoe works because I have two RB lenses and if I'm not mistaken the RB lenses don't have contact pins to the RZ body. (Which means the RZ won't trigger an RB lens x-sync?)

 

MattKing

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gus. said:
Thanks! I'm so relieved my hotshoe works because I have two RB lenses and if I'm not mistaken the RB lenses don't have contact pins to the RZ body. (Which means the RZ won't trigger an RB lens x-sync?)

Click to expand...

The shutter and flash synching circuitry is in the lens for both the RB and the RZ. The RZ adds a connection from the lens to the camera body to enable the hot shoe on the body.

The mechanical switches in the pc circuitry in the RB lenses can build up resistance. Older, higher trigger voltage equipment might be able to work through that resistance in circumstances where the newer, low trigger voltage equipment may fail to do so.

Flash synch circuits need maintenance too.
 
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gus.

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Ah! I should have said, "the RB lens won't fire the RZ hotshoe."
 

film_man

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I wasn't aware of that, will have to keep it in mind but I'm curious: how do you "service" a flash circuit? It's not like you clean it or lubricate it. ???
 

mweintraub

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gus. said:
Ah! I should have said, "the RB lens won't fire the RZ hotshoe."
Click to expand...

I don't see why not? The body (ie. Hotshoe) knows when the shutter is triggered. I plan on trying an RB lens on a RZ soon, so I'll try it out.
 

M Carter

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film_man said:
I wasn't aware of that, will have to keep it in mind but I'm curious: how do you "service" a flash circuit? It's not like you clean it or lubricate it. ???
Click to expand...

I suppose the idea of resistance makes sense.

The flash circuit (in a Mamiya RB Seiko shutter at least) is inside the shutter housing, along with the X/M switch. There's a set of physical contacts that are triggered as part of the shutter action. It's all a bit steampunk-mechanical compared to modern engineering. So corrosion or oil/environmental factors could gunk it up.

That said, I can't believe all six of my lenses have exactly the same condition… especially since their shutter blades are clean and functional, and since my 180 got a complete strip-down and the entire shutter got a solvent bath in white gas yet still won't fire a newer (and el cheapo) radio trigger..

I'll have to assume that the RB lens synch circuit just has more resistance than a smaller vintage shutter (like my various RFs and Nikons from the 60's/70's) or a modern SLR/DSLR. I can't recall how the X/M synch works either, but I'd guess it has to choose at which point the shutter is considered "open enough for flash" and that this makes the circuit more complex.
 
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gus.

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mweintraub said:
I don't see why not? The body (ie. Hotshoe) knows when the shutter is triggered. I plan on trying an RB lens on a RZ soon, so I'll try it out.
Click to expand...

You know, it's RZ lenses that won't work on RB bodies. That's right. Glad you're all hear to quell my misinformation. Lol.
 

MattKing

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There are no electrical contacts on the back of an RB lens, so there is no way to communicate synchronization information back to the RZ body from the flash synchronization circuits in the shutter built into the RB lens.

The camera body does know when the shutter has been actuated, but that is a simple yes/no physical linkage.
 
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