RZ67 in bright sunlight: Isn't 1/400s shutter speed too slow? How to meter properly for portraits?

moodlover · Aug 3, 2016

Hi all,

ive used my RZ67 in the studio only with flash strobes at 1/400s and never had a dilemma until now. I put my strobes away and started using the strong direct sunlight that comes in through my windows and lands on my subjects face (shooting portraits). Film is Kodak Portra 160, 400, or 800 sometimes.

I meter the light hitting the face using a handheld Sekonic L-358 and it reads: 1/4000s!!!
The shadows around the scene of the subject (not her face) read: 1/150, 1/200, etc (much darker values)

Of course, my RZ67 only shoots up to 1/400s and I have no idea what to do here. I can't select 1/4000s (or 1/2000s to overexpose one stop), so what would you do in this situation to get total highlight detail and plenty of shadow detail?

Edit: important detail: I forgot to mention I don't want to change my aperture, I am shooting wide open because I like the shallow depth of field!

Mainecoonmaniac · Aug 3, 2016

You can shoot at a higher F-stop to lower the shutter speed and up the power of your flash to match the new F-stop. Another strategy is to use grip equipment and flag off the hot areas.

Terry Breedlove · Aug 3, 2016

ND filter maybe and try to reflect some light into the shadows to even things out a bit.

TooManyShots · Aug 3, 2016

Yeah, use a ND filter or diffuse the sunlight with a reflector....

Ozxplorer · Aug 3, 2016

G'day Mate... Firstly I'd suggest there is nothing wrong about the RZ67. The speed constraint is a given; one within which we have to work. So, in my opinion the issues you describe are possibly the result of incorrect metering technique or the meter itself. Considering the "sunny f16 rule" and using incident metering to achieve a shutter speed of 1/4000s using, say, 200 iso film, you would need an aperture setting of around f1:4.0 - at the limit of most RZ67 lenses. Consider a higher aperture setting - 11/16 @ 400th. The 6 stop range between the highlight and shadow reading is something careful development could cope with. Result: no problem! For a little insurance maybe expose N+1 (8/11th @ 400th) and under develop accordingly. To fill the shadows try a reflector or two carefully situated to enhance the light modelling. Lastly, the meter seems to be doing its job correctly... To sum up you don't have a problem. Instead of working at the limit of your options remain flexible as to aperture choices and lighting controls available to you... Good luck!

moodlover · Aug 3, 2016

Mainecoonmaniac said:
You can shoot at a higher F-stop to lower the shutter speed and up the power of your flash to match the new F-stop. Another strategy is to use grip equipment and flag off the hot areas.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I am no longer shooting flash! Just natural sunlight coming in from my window. Also, I am trying to keep my aperture the same/wide-open.

Terry Breedlove said:
ND filter maybe and try to reflect some light into the shadows to even things out a bit.

TooManyShots said:
Yeah, use a ND filter or diffuse the sunlight with a reflector....

This is a good idea but I feel ND filter would make the shadows too dark since the shadows are already like 4-5 stops darker than the light.

Ozxplorer said:
G'day Mate... Firstly I'd suggest there is nothing wrong about the RZ67. The speed constraint is a given; one within which we have to work. So, in my opinion the issues you describe are possibly the result of incorrect metering technique or the meter itself. Considering the "sunny f16 rule" and using incident metering to achieve a shutter speed of 1/4000s using, say, 200 iso film, you would need an aperture setting of around f1:4.0 - at the limit of most RZ67 lenses. Consider a higher aperture setting - 11/16 @ 400th. The 6 stop range between the highlight and shadow reading is something careful development could cope with. Result: no problem! For a little insurance maybe expose N+1 (8/11th @ 400th) and under develop accordingly. To fill the shadows try a reflector or two carefully situated to enhance the light modelling. Lastly, the meter seems to be doing its job correctly... To sum up you don't have a problem. Instead of working at the limit of your options remain flexible as to aperture choices and lighting controls available to you... Good luck!

Firstly, I am shooting Portra 400 film at f/2.8 on the Mamiya 110 lens so it lets a lot of light in wide-open hence the high shutter speed reading on my incident meter. I am trying to keep it wide open for my shallow depth of field portraits (as I love that look). The shadows I dont think can be filled in because I am refering to the shadow of the entire scene (the floor, the surroundings, not on her face).

Terry Breedlove · Aug 3, 2016

The ND filter will have no effect on the shadows it will just allow you to use a slower shutter speed. The reflector will fill the shadows.

moodlover · Aug 3, 2016

Terry Breedlove said:
The ND filter will have no effect on the shadows it will just allow you to use a slower shutter speed. The reflector will fill the shadows.

Terry, I cannot fill in the shadows because the shadows I'm referring to are environment shadows, not the ones on her face!

MattKing · Aug 3, 2016

The ratio of lighting between the bright highlights and the shadows will not be affected by anything you do with the camera. It is determined by he realities of the scene. To change that, you need to modify the lighting itself, either by:
1) adding light to the shadowed areas; or
2) subtracting light from the highlights.

The former you can accomplish by either using reflectors or by adding additional aimed light sources, either continuous or flash.

The latter you can accomplish by attenuating the outside light using drapes or screens or scrims.

Terry Breedlove · Aug 3, 2016

moodlover said:
Terry, I cannot fill in the shadows because the shadows I'm referring to are environment shadows, not the ones on her face!

Ah ok well then you need a slower shutter speed to bring out background shadows and a light modifier like a scrim for portrait so as to knock down the bright light on your subject..

Dan Fromm · Aug 3, 2016

moodlover said:
Hi all,

ive used my RZ67 in the studio only with flash strobes at 1/400s and never had a dilemma until now. I put my strobes away and started using the strong direct sunlight that comes in through my windows and lands on my subjects face (shooting portraits). Film is Kodak Portra 160, 400, or 800 sometimes.

I meter the light hitting the face using a handheld Sekonic L-358 and it reads: 1/4000s!!!
The shadows around the scene of the subject (not her face) read: 1/150, 1/200, etc (much darker values)

Hmm. You're doing something wrong or your meter is broken/far off calibration.

Do you have the manual? If not, get it from here: www.sekonic.com/downloads/l-358_english.pdf Read it.

I didn't mean to insult you, but by the notorious sunny 16 rule at high noon ISO 160 film wants to be shot @ f/16 @ 1/160. ISO 400 @ f/16 @ f/400. ISO 800 @ f/16 @ 1/800. 1/4000 would want between f/2.8 and f/4 @Iso 160, between f/4 and f/5.6 @ ISO 400, and between f/5.6 and f/8 @ ISO 800.

Ozxplorer · Aug 3, 2016

Mmmm. You have all the options described above available to you. Decide what you want to do; then do it! How much of the "environment" to be included in the frame and the treatment thereof only you can determine. How much or little of the frame will be occupied by your model only you can decide. To proceed without any form of light shaping or additional light source - you get what go for within the limits of your camera and the film plus any other constraints you establish for yourself. Good luck... If at first you don't succeed... etc. etc.

moodlover · Aug 3, 2016

MattKing said:
The ratio of lighting between the bright highlights and the shadows will not be affected by anything you do with the camera. It is determined by he realities of the scene. To change that, you need to modify the lighting itself, either by:
1) adding light to the shadowed areas; or
2) subtracting light from the highlights.

The former you can accomplish by either using reflectors or by adding additional aimed light sources, either continuous or flash.

The latter you can accomplish by attenuating the outside light using drapes or screens or scrims.

Thank you, I am going to use some white sheer curtains to soften the light and to also bring it down a bit, I hope it doesn't also make the shadows too dark but I think it should be okay since the contrast will be slightly reduced.

Terry Breedlove said:
Ah ok well then you need a slower shutter speed to bring out background shadows and a light modifier like a scrim for portrait so as to knock down the bright light on your subject..

Gotcha, will use this next time to soften the light up!

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. You're doing something wrong or your meter is broken/far off calibration.

Do you have the manual? If not, get it from here: www.sekonic.com/downloads/l-358_english.pdf Read it.

I didn't mean to insult you, but by the notorious sunny 16 rule at high noon ISO 160 film wants to be shot @ f/16 @ 1/160. ISO 400 @ f/16 @ f/400. ISO 800 @ f/16 @ 1/800. 1/4000 would want between f/2.8 and f/4 @Iso160, between f/4 and f/5.6 @ ISO 400, and between f/5.6 and f/8 @ ISO 800.

Well, the aperture of the Mamiya 110 lens wide open is f/2.8! This is what I keep it at for shallow depth of field portraits. Still think im doing something wrong?

wiltw · Aug 4, 2016

Sunny 16 with Portra 160 is 1/160 f/16. Or 1/640 f/8. If you have only 1/500 with a leaf shutter lens you need to use f/9.

Shooting with 180mm lens at 9' to frame a portraiture subject,

your 'manufacturer standard' DOF zone at f/9 is 8.2",
and for someone with 20/20 vision, the DOF zone is about 3.5"

...so what is the problem?

MattKing · Aug 4, 2016

If you use white sheer curtains, you will most likely lighten the shadows as well, because the diffused light from the curtains will have a tendency to partially illuminate those shadows.

Terry Breedlove · Aug 4, 2016

You can buy foam insulation board white on one side to use as a reflector about $10 at home depot. Might help to throw some light on your background.

williaty · Aug 4, 2016

Your options:

1) Use a 4-stop ND (also called 1.2 or a 16x) filter. It will not change the relationship between your highlights and your shadows because it makes everything darker by the same amount.

2) Use a slower film, though I have no idea where you're going to get a ISO 6 film these days!

3) Some combination of 1 and 2.

4) Find a way to block out light evenly from every single thing appearing in your photo. Probably impossible for a real-world outside shot.

Dan Fromm · Aug 4, 2016

moodlover said:
Well, the aperture of the Mamiya 110 lens wide open is f/2.8! This is what I keep it at for shallow depth of field portraits. Still think im doing something wrong?

Yes. Wrong and cruel. You gave us partial information, viz., the shutter speed the meter wanted (given the film's speed and the aperture you wanted to use) but didn't tell us the aperture you wanted to use. This was, um, unkind. You were playing games with us. You reported using three film speeds. The meter can't have recommended the same shutter speed for the same aperture with all three films. You misled us or maybe you think we're dumb. Unkind again.

And long after you posted the question you added a correction to the original post that spelled things out a little more. Dishonest. Wrong.

If you want help that's really helpful, you should give full information when you ask for help. Otherwise, well, you risk getting what you feel is abuse.

wiltw · Aug 4, 2016

moodlover said:
Edit: important detail: I forgot to mention I don't want to change my aperture, I am shooting wide open because I like the shallow depth of field!

As I stated in post 14, at f/9 the DOF for a viewer with 20/20 vision at the shooting distance of 9' with a 180mm lens is a mere 3.5" deep area in focus...what are you wanting to achieve? Eyes in focus and tip of nose not in focus?!

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 4, 2016

Try using slower film. If you're shooting Portra 400, switch to Ektar 100, and shoot it at 50, or Portra 160 and shoot it at 80. That gets you three stops down -2000 -1000 -500 . 1 stop over-exposure is nothing to a color negative film.

moodlover · Aug 4, 2016

Dan Fromm said:
Yes. Wrong and cruel. You gave us partial information, viz., the shutter speed the meter wanted (given the film's speed and the aperture you wanted to use) but didn't tell us the aperture you wanted to use. This was, um, unkind. You were playing games with us. You reported using three film speeds. The meter can't have recommended the same shutter speed for the same aperture with all three films. You misled us or maybe you think we're dumb. Unkind again.

And long after you posted the question you added a correction to the original post that spelled things out a little more. Dishonest. Wrong.

If you want help that's really helpful, you should give full information when you ask for help. Otherwise, well, you risk getting what you feel is abuse.

...dumb? unkind? dishonest? wrong? abuse? All this because I made an honest mistake and forgot to type my aperture? Hahaha, you're taking this internet thing way too serious...relax my friend, no one is asking you to contribute if you are this upset. Breathe and have a drink, please.

moodlover · Aug 4, 2016

wiltw said:
As I stated in post 14, at f/9 the DOF for a viewer with 20/20 vision at the shooting distance of 9' with a 180mm lens is a mere 3.5" deep area in focus...what are you wanting to achieve? Eyes in focus and tip of nose not in focus?!

Hi, Im not using a 180mm lens, I'm shooting the 110mm at f/2.8. The nose can be blurry, I like that look!

wiltw · Aug 4, 2016

moodlover said:
Hi, Im not using a 180mm lens, I'm shooting the 110mm at f/2.8. The nose can be blurry, I like that look!

110mm would need to be only 4' away from subject to frame a head and shoulders shot, highly inadvisable.
But even 110mm at f/8 has 20/20 viewer DOF zone of 1.6" at that shooting distance.
110mm at 8' from subject would frame 4' x 5' area, and would have f/8 DOF zone of 6.7"

TooManyShots · Aug 4, 2016

Your best solution....

flavio81 · Aug 4, 2016

moodlover said:
Hi all,

ive used my RZ67 in the studio only with flash strobes at 1/400s and never had a dilemma until now. I put my strobes away and started using the strong direct sunlight that comes in through my windows and lands on my subjects face (shooting portraits). Film is Kodak Portra 160, 400, or 800 sometimes.

I meter the light hitting the face using a handheld Sekonic L-358 and it reads: 1/4000s!!!
The shadows around the scene of the subject (not her face) read: 1/150, 1/200, etc (much darker values)

Of course, my RZ67 only shoots up to 1/400s and I have no idea what to do here. I can't select 1/4000s (or 1/2000s to overexpose one stop), so what would you do in this situation to get total highlight detail and plenty of shadow detail?

Edit: important detail: I forgot to mention I don't want to change my aperture, I am shooting wide open because I like the shallow depth of field!

I don't want to be rude, but if you pretend on using the MIGHTY MAMIYA RZ67, one of the BEST cameras of all time, and a camera which was very expensive and intended to be used by seasoned pros, you should at the very least know:

- What is a f/stop and how can it reduce light (considering also that the RZ67 lenses can stop to f/32 and beyond)
- How to report the readings from your meter: You need to report us the aperture, shutter speed AND ISO.
- Sunny 16 rule (light meters are for wimps)

And if you are shooting medium format you should already know that you can easily stop down to, say, f/32 without loss of sharpness due to diffraction.

As pointed above, with ISO 800 film, at broad sunny day your exposure would be 1/800 @ f16 which is 1/400 @ f22, which is pretty good for 6x7 medium format. If you want to use a greater aperture, switch to ISO 100 film, that would give you 1/400 at f8. F8 with a 180mm lens still gives you that "narrow DOF" look, being equivalent more or less to using 90mm at f2.8 on a 35mm camera.

Edit: If you use the 110mm lens at f8, that's more or less equivalent to using a 55mm lens at f2.8 on a 35mm camera.

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