Russian Aerial / Spy Lens 20cm Metrogon / Topogon Type -- Approximate Value ??

[Old-N-Feeble]

I have a decent understand of this lens' capabilities and limitations. I have a couple I'd like to sell but I can't find any recent listings nor does a google search find even a single reference to this lens. I can find Topogons and Metrogons but not any of the Soviet variants. Has anyone seen any sell in the last year or two?

 

[Dan Fromm]

Which one is it? There should be a name engraved on the front trim ring.

There are at least two 200/6.3 Orions. -1a, covers 92 degrees, and -20, covers 65 degrees.

I don't think you're using it or will use it. If you want to find out how much it will bring, put it up for sale on eBay.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

The closest I can get to typing in English is "OPNOH 1a". The N is backwards, of course.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

"OPNOH 1a".

That's "Orion 1a".

They made an Orion for the 35mm cameras, too, AFAIK all Orions are Topogons, just as all Jupiters are Sonnars and all Helios are double Gauss.

 

[pdeeh]

The 35mm version is the Orion-15, a 28mm f/6 lens. They are not common, but I have one. There is quite an interesting page about their history and uses (including in spy cameras) here: http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Soviet_and_wide_lenses_on_Leica_M/00_p.htm and it does seem to be a Topogon

As for the 1a, I see a couple on eBay at the moment for ~$1500, but there are no "sold" listings to indicate what someone might actually pay (as opposed to ask) for a copy

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Good grief... there's no way these are worth $1500 each unless they're rare collector pieces.

 

[pdeeh]

People will pay absurd prices for lenses though ... I could probably sell my Orion-15 for in the region of $250, despite the fact that it is an f/6 maximum aperture lens and seems to be made from melted-down saucepans (I got it as part of a job lot for about 1/10 of that price); I certainly wouldn't spend more than $50 on one ...

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yeah, I bought these about 10-15 years ago for approximately $80 each delivered. I should have bought all I could find. Hindsight...

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I guess I'll clean these up and list them on eBay. I need the cash.

 

[Xmas]

The 28mm /6 Orion in LTM or Kiev mount is an ok lens even at /6.

The LTM about100 GBP.

The Kiev is rare so a lot more in collector condition.

E Bay ones will be cheaper.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

The way I understand it, many (or most) of the Topogon-type lenses were designed to be best wide-open. These Orion 1a have variable apertures that are limited (don't fully open) and only close so far (maybe f/16 or f/22?). I suppose if one wanted to they might be able to make these f/5.6 or f/4 lenses by modifying the aperture but it's probably not worth the effort unless one is looking for "special effect" distortions.

 

[Xmas]

The Orion -15 28mm is the same - the iris is not fully open at /6 and stops down to /22.

Think this simplifies the mechanicals.

If you put it on eBay put an astro BIN on it the Kiev version can go for 250GBP and it is higher volume and a toy. Id add a zero...

edit

The -15 is good at /6 as you suggest.

 

[Dr Croubie]

FYI, there are 5 Orions listed at the Zenit archives. (this site is part of the reason I can read cyrillic characters, kinda useful when half your lenses are Ukrainian).
Orion 1, 200mm f/6.3, 92°
Orion 2, 150mm f/6.0, 80°
Orion 20, 200mm f/6.3. 65°
Orion 15, 28mm f/6.0, 75° (for 35mm)
Orion 18, 100mm f/8.0, 60° (process lens)
There's nothing particularly special about them, they're not the sharpest lenses in the world (and certainly not the fastest), there's not much that justifies the prices they get (eg $200ish for the Orion 15) except rarity.
Give it time, and Lomography will release a new version of the Orion 15, just like they did with the Russar.

If you paid $80 for them, that's a bargain. Clean them up, list one as BIN for $1k if you don't need the cash straight away, and just wait for someone to buy one. If noone does, drop it by $50 every relist. As soon as someone buys one, list the others at that price and just wait for them to go.
Or if you really do need the cash, do a $1 NR on one and see where it gets you, then list the others at $50 more BIN and leave them there.

 

[Xmas]

http://shop.lomography.com/en/russar-plus

Since yours is rare Id set the BIN a bit higher...

 

[Dan Fromm]

Dr. C., y'r source (http://www.zenitcamera.com/catalog/lenseslist.html) is highly selective and incomplete. You can download the 1963 GOI and 1971 and '72 Yakovlev catalogs from http://www.lallement.com/pictures/files.htm The GOI (State Optical Institute) catalog lists every lens GOI designed from the beginning of time through 1963. Yakovlev doesn't list all, adds some that were designed after 1963.

For lenses designed through 1963 the GOI catalog is the source. For later lenses, I find photohistory.ru better than the Zenit archives. I think, haven't checked, that photohistory.ru has every lens in the Zenit archives and more.

You should be aware that the the GOI catalog's resolution curves are at full aperture. The lenses all ought to do better stopped down. The one Soviet aerial camera lens I have, a Uran-27, certainly does.

I couldn't paste in the list of Orion lenses on pp. 82-3 of the GOI catalog. It lists 18 Orions. Most are 4/4 double Gauss types but some, e.g., the Orion-20 I mentioned earlier in this discussion, are 6/4 plasmats. The Orion-24, which looks like a lens for a scanning panorama camera, is a bit more complex.

Good luck, have fun with the catalogs,

Dan

 

[Dr Croubie]

Wow, 140mb pdf, that's huge (but decent quality), thanks Dan.
I knew that there were a whole lot of other lenses than those list at the Zenit site (I've even seen some for sale on the 'bay that weren't listed there), but I'd always assumed that they were just made elsewhere and not at KMZ. The whole Soviet way of working gets confusing as to who built what and where sometimes.
That'll keep me interested for the next week or so reading through it, too bad it's handwritten and unsorted, but I likes me a challenge. (edit, or now that I've read it a bit more, there are multiple tables of the same things, alternately sorted by focal length, speed, etc?)
(I used to have a whole lot of saved searches for various lenses, although frankly, I've gotten more hits searching for something like 'old russian lens' than for searching by name).

 

[Dan Fromm]

too bad it's handwritten and unsorted

You'll find that in the data section the lenses are sorted by design date (yy-mm). There are tables at front sorted by, among other things, design date, maximum aperture, focal length, coverage, design type, name, ... Design date is one of the fields in each table. The GOI catalog isn't quite as hard to use as it seems at first. The Yakovlev catalogs are harder, there's no avoiding scanning the table of contents.

It helps to tell your pdf reader to fit one full page to window.

Very few of the lenses in the GOI catalog have made it to the secondary market in quantity.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

A lot of very helpful info here.

 

[Dr Croubie]

Very few of the lenses in the GOI catalog have made it to the secondary market in quantity.

Yeah, that's the unfortunate thing, I've heard of so many lenses that hit my GAS button, like the 500/3.5 TOZ-500 mirror lens that doesn't seem to exist outside the KGB, or the Jupiter 13 for that waffer-thin look that only exists occasionally for astronomical prices on fleabay. They're on my "if i win the lottery enough to retire" list of toys to waste money on.
If only I knew what I do now when I went to Russia 5 years ago, I'd spend my time in antique-stores (too bad I'll probably never go back, visa-problems I'd rather not repeat). Maybe it's better this way, or I'd run out of room in my suitcases (and house).

Meanwhile, back to OP, if it's definitely an Orion 1A, then it covers at least 8x10 (the 1 and 1B don't). If you list them on fleabay make sure you mention that, there's not too many around that wide for 8x10 for any sort of cheap price, it'll help push up the prices.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

RE covering 8x10: Won't it barely cover 11x14 albeit very dark in the corners?

 

[Dr Croubie]

RE covering 8x10: Won't it barely cover 11x14 albeit very dark in the corners?

Well, that catalogue lists it as 415mm IC, 11x14 is near enough to 450mm.
But, as always, circle of illumination and circle of acceptable sharpness can be two different values (and which value is used depends on what the manufacturer or their marketing department wants to use), the definition of 'acceptable' varies with whoever is looking at the result, and stopping down usually increases the size of either or both of those circles. Best thing is to try it if you can, but if you're just listing it maybe include some weasel-words "may cover 11x14 stopped down but untested" so noone can complain...

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Yes but the catalog also states it covers 30x30cm which has a diagonal of 424mm... though the actual image area is probably smaller. Also, 11x14 inch is actually closer to 10.6x13.6 which has a diagonal of 438mm. I was hoping that last few mm wouldn't be too big of a stretch. It would be a shame to miss covering 11x14 by less than half an inch per corner.

 

[Dr Croubie]

Yeah, I'd certainly be trying it out if you really want to know for sure (but then you'll have to have an 11x14" camera just lying around). You may even find out that it covers 11x14 with room for movements and still retain decent quality if you're at f/64 and contact-printing.
(ps, I was just going off the 447.8mm IC from here, too lazy to get a calculator myself).

Meanwhile, I was just reading a recent Rodenstock catalogue, for comparison the Apo-Sironar-S 240mm covers 372mm IC, but they say max recommended film is 5x7" (even though they also give 43/36mm movement figures for 8x10). Possibly because they don't want people to buy it for 8x10 work and then complain about soft/dark corners when shifting too much? Who knows? Like I said, what is covered is more subjective, for both you and the marketing department that made the brochure of the day...

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I have an 8x10 that I can use shift and rise to offset the image enough to determine if the lens will cover 11x14 but I don't know if I have a lens board for it. I need to muster the energy to try it because if it does cover 11x14 that would be a selling point.

Does anyone know if there's a center filter that would work with this lens without vignetting?