Running water temperature control without Intellifaucet (UK)

ITD · Oct 13, 2018

I’m developing E6 (3 bath) in a Jobo, and using jugs of water mixed to the right temperature for the washing steps. I’d love to use running water washes but haven’t figured out a way of keeping the running water at the right temperature. Dealing with the jugs and keeping them at the right temperature is really starting to bug me

A possible complicating factor is that I use a combination boiler for hot water. I do have that hot water available in the darkroom though.

Any ideas about how to do this? Are there any products like temperature controlled mixers in the UK that people have used successfully? I definitely don’t have the budget for an Intellifaucet, and don’t know if it would be able to fit with UK plumbing in any case.

Thanks

Alan9940 · Oct 13, 2018

I don't know what is specifically available in the UK, but Delta 1, I believe, makes a simple mixing valve with a thermometer attached. You manually adjust the hot/cold lines until your desired temp is obtained. You might, also, want to look into thermostatic mixing valves (available through plumbing supply places.)

ITD · Oct 13, 2018

Are they any good? The mixing valves I’ve seen appear to protect against over heating but don’t say much about maintaining temperature.

Svenedin · Oct 13, 2018

The thermostatic mixing valves are quite good. I can only comment about the ones designed for a shower. My one required calibration which basically meant measuring the temperature of the water delivered at a particular setting and then making adjustments to the mixing valve to correct it. I am unsure about use with a combination boiler as my boiler provides stored hot water via the traditional indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard. Such a setup provides a relatively constant hot water inlet temperature (until of course a lot of the stored water is used). I connect up the shower hose to one of those Paterson washer hoses ("Paterson force film washer") that fits into a Paterson tank. I don't see why this would not work for you. Screwfix sell fairly inexpensive thermostatic mixing bars for showers (this is what I used: https://www.screwfix.com/p/watersmi...tic-bar-mixer-shower-valve-fixed-chrome/8715p)

ITD · Oct 13, 2018

Thanks for the link, I’ll look at those.

russell_w_b · Oct 13, 2018

I can maintain 30C for six minutes in running water from our kitchen mixer tap, but I have to think ahead for a minute or so for it to stabilise. And there must be NO toilet flushing, showering, or use of the washing machine! We have stored hot water though so perhaps easier than a combi supply. Could you set your combi water temperature at your desired upper threshold for the duration and adjust it back afterwards?

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

I wonder just how much water you really need for a processing batch? What's the volume of water required?

Couldn't you just put a reservoir of sufficient water capacity above the jobo and heat it with a Sous Vide heater?

In that regard, here are some Sous Vide performance benchmarks; admittedly this is for cooking temperatures, but it is a useful comparison nonetheless...

https://www.amazingfoodmadeeasy.com...rk-tests-0985304e-73fa-4407-a90b-c14611bc898e

pentaxuser · Oct 13, 2018

The key question is: how big a range of wash water temp can E6 stand. If it is quite a big range then you may be OK with combi temps. You need to weigh what a combi gives you against the cost and fuss of installing a system that controls temp to say less than 1 degree.

If you aim is to avoid jugs etc for processing then consider a Jobo machine. Yes it will be several hundred pounds but a thermostatically controlled heating system for say the darkroom may be just as expensive

pentaxuser

MattKing · Oct 13, 2018

This is what Kodak says about wash rates in Rack and Tank automatic processors:
"Wash Rates. The flow rate should be at least 1 L/min/ 135 roll during maximum processing. For example, if a processor holds six rolls on a rack, the wash flow rate should be at least 6 L/min. If a processor holds three rolls on a rack, the flow rate should be at least 3 L/min. The water flow should turn off when no film is being processed. Do not direct the flow of water toward the film surface. Direct it toward the bottom of the tank to prevent streaking."
For Rotary Tube processing, Kodak recommends: "Wash 4:00 minutes @35 to 40C (95 to 104F) Use two 1-minute running-water washes followed by 2-minute wash."
Here is a link to the old Kodak E6 processing info - J38 - https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j83-2005_11.pdf

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

pentaxuser said:
The key question is: how big a range of wash water temp can E6 stand. If it is quite a big range then you may be OK with combi temps. You need to weigh what a combi gives you against the cost and fuss of installing a system that controls temp to say less than 1 degree.

If you aim is to avoid jugs etc for processing then consider a Jobo machine. Yes it will be several hundred pounds but a thermostatically controlled heating system for say the darkroom may be just as expensive

pentaxuser

The OP is using a JOBO. The wash water is not tempered by the machine, only the developer jacket.

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

Ran back and grabbed my JOBO 2300 manual and it states that a minimum of 15 PSI is required on the tempered water line and that the incoming water should be within +/- 0.5 degrees C of the process temperature.

Guess it would be hard to get 15 psi from a standing reservoir unless it was 15 stories above you...

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

Svenedin said:
The thermostatic mixing valves are quite good. I can only comment about the ones designed for a shower. My one required calibration which basically meant measuring the temperature of the water delivered at a particular setting and then making adjustments to the mixing valve to correct it. I am unsure about use with a combination boiler as my boiler provides stored hot water via the traditional indirect cylinder in the airing cupboard. Such a setup provides a relatively constant hot water inlet temperature (until of course a lot of the stored water is used). I connect up the shower hose to one of those Paterson washer hoses ("Paterson force film washer") that fits into a Paterson tank. I don't see why this would not work for you. Screwfix sell fairly inexpensive thermostatic mixing bars for showers (this is what I used: https://www.screwfix.com/p/watersmi...tic-bar-mixer-shower-valve-fixed-chrome/8715p)

Can you relate the accuracy of these valves?

Svenedin · Oct 13, 2018

Kino said:
Can you relate the accuracy of these valves?

Within a degree Centigrade +/- but not the 0.5 degree accuracy you mention in your post. With such a valve the best the OP could do would be to start the water flow, establish it is at the correct temperature as shown on the valve (and assuming he had calibrated it when first installed) and commence his wash. They are really not meant for temperature critical applications but for the comfort of someone having a shower. However, the OP has said that a specialist thermostatic mixing valve is out of his budget so I am just suggesting something that may be "good enough" but of course not perfect.

MattKing · Oct 13, 2018

The process itself only needs 0.5 degree accuracy for the short first wash.

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

Svenedin said:
Within a degree Centigrade +/- but not the 0.5 degree accuracy you mention in your post. With such a valve the best the OP could do would be to start the water flow, establish it is at the correct temperature as shown on the valve (and assuming he had calibrated it when first installed) and commence his wash. They are really not meant for temperature critical applications but for the comfort of someone having a shower. However, the OP has said that a specialist thermostatic mixing valve is out of his budget so I am just suggesting something that may be "good enough" but of course not perfect.

Thank you and understood. You pay a lot for that last 0.5 degrees of tempering...

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

MattKing said:
The process itself only needs 0.5 degree accuracy for the short first wash.

Wonder if you could build a small volume tank with a Sous Vide heater for that initial wash and then use less stringently tempered water for the remainder of the wash?

Anyway, unless your wash lines are incredibly well insulated and water is flushed through the line until the instant the 1st wash is performed, you will NOT have 0.5 degree tempered water entering the JOBO tank. Line losses (or gains) of heat insure this...

I think the stringency is overstated...

MattKing · Oct 13, 2018

Actually, the Kodak specifications only require 1.0C accuracy.
The first wash is only 2 minutes - what flow rate does the JOBO use for a wash cycle?

Kino · Oct 13, 2018

The manual only states a 2 minute length for the rinse. I don't remember off the top of my head if the tank just fills and dumps once, but I suspect that is the case.

Volume would depend upon the selected tank.

Unfortunately, I have to get ready for a trip, but I will leave you with the JOBO manual page for chemical quantity according to tank.

ITD · Oct 13, 2018

The Jobo I’m using is a CPE3 so the only option for washing on the machine is to fill and dump (water changes every 30s for 2.5 mins).

My hope is to take the drum off the machine and use running water theough the force washing hose. As the first wash is pretty intolerant of variation I may have to put up with using a jug for that one but the rest can hopefully be controlled using the shower mixer.

pentaxuser · Oct 13, 2018

ITD said:
The Jobo I’m using is a CPE3 so the only option for washing on the machine is to fill and dump (water changes every 30s for 2.5 mins).

My hope is to take the drum off the machine and use running water theough the force washing hose. As the first wash is pretty intolerant of variation I may have to put up with using a jug for that one but the rest can hopefully be controlled using the shower mixer.

Sounds like a plan to me. I googled "E6 rinse temperature and what came up was a thread from the Large Format Forum where answers varied considerably as is to be expected. One person had used cold tap water at about 20-21C which is warmer than most cold taps will deliver for most of if not all of the year in the U.K. and had had no problems but he may have been lucky. However my suspicions are that beyond the first rinse which you mention, the range of temperature is much less critical.

pentaxuser

ITD · Oct 13, 2018

Just looked up that thread. Won’t be trying that!

mshchem · Oct 13, 2018

I have really nice photo mixing valves . When I process E-6 I use the valve to fill the Jobo processor bath to save pre-heat time . For wash after 1st developer I fill a plastic bucket with tempered water and dip out of it. Mixing valves are great but back in the old days they used immense amounts of water for temperature control.

My kitchen is so far from the central water heater I have to run 3 to 4 gallons of water before the hot water arrives. Drives me crazy. If I want to do a quick clean up in the kitchen, I wet a rag and warm it up in the microwave. I've been using a microwave in my darkroom to warm chemistry for 20 years, saves time and water.

Fin · Oct 13, 2018

ITD said:
I’m developing E6 (3 bath) in a Jobo, and using jugs of water mixed to the right temperature for the washing steps. I’d love to use running water washes but haven’t figured out a way of keeping the running water at the right temperature.

A possible complicating factor is that I use a combination boiler for hot water. I do have that hot water available in the darkroom though.

Any ideas about how to do this? Are there any products like temperature controlled mixers in the UK that people have used successfully?

We have a Grohe thermostatically controlled shower driven from a combi boiler, which has a lock at 38°C (although you could set it to any temp). I calibrated it a year or so ago and was quite impressed at how quickly it got to temp and stayed there, plus it seemed to be pretty accurate. I don't use it for developing as my darkroom is in an outside utility room, but I am thinking of buying one when I finally get round to re-fitting the utility room and feeding it with a small electric water heater. I'm developing some films on Monday, so I'll have a measure of the water temp coming out of it and post an update!

mshchem · Oct 14, 2018

Fin said:
We have a Grohe thermostatically controlled shower driven from a combi boiler, which has a lock at 38°C (although you could set it to any temp). I calibrated it a year or so ago and was quite impressed at how quickly it got to temp and stayed there, plus it seemed to be pretty accurate. I don't use it for developing as my darkroom is in an outside utility room, but I am thinking of buying one when I finally get round to re-fitting the utility room and feeding it with a small electric water heater. I'm developing some films on Monday, so I'll have a measure of the water temp coming out of it and post an update!

Grohe makes great fixtures. All kinds of thermostatic valves are on the market for the shower. These will hold temperature as well any dedicated darkroom unit. All my valves are old school Kodak (Lawler) and Pako. All these things work off the same principle. If for some reason you loose cold water, they will shut down to prevent scalding.the small electric water heater is a great idea. In the USA there are tons of the old valves available surplus. But having a nice new model with a quick change cartridge would be nice, just plumb in a thermometer . Delta makes valves for US market that are very affordable ,it's the silly decorative fascia that costs a lot. You don't need that in a darkroom.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 14, 2018

ITD said:
I’m developing E6 (3 bath) in a Jobo, and using jugs of water mixed to the right temperature for the washing steps. I’d love to use running water washes but haven’t figured out a way of keeping the running water at the right temperature. Dealing with the jugs and keeping them at the right temperature is really starting to bug me

A possible complicating factor is that I use a combination boiler for hot water. I do have that hot water available in the darkroom though.

Any ideas about how to do this? Are there any products like temperature controlled mixers in the UK that people have used successfully? I definitely don’t have the budget for an Intellifaucet, and don’t know if it would be able to fit with UK plumbing in any case.

Thanks

the Intellifaucet fits the UK plumbing;I ran one in Essex and it is the best thing for water control. a simpler mixing valve may work but needs constant attendance.

Running water temperature control without Intellifaucet (UK)

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