Round Two..what a disaster.

bobwysiwyg · Aug 22, 2008

Relatively new to 4x5, but took a couple of shots several weeks ago. Turned out OK, nothing esthetically great, but technically good.. if you overlooked the dust. That's when I understood what folks were saying about cleanliness while loading, etc. Anyway, developed them (TMAX 100) in D76 straight in a Combi tank and all was well.

Took the camera up on vacation with us and took some holders loaded with TMAX 100 and some with 400. Going to sleep the night after taking the first two shots it suddenly dawned on me, I forgot to close the preview before pulling the dark slide. Duh! Oh, well...

Took a number of shots using up both the remaining 100's and then the 400's. I started developing them today and started with the 400's. As careful as I was, I still managed to load two sheets into the same slot in the Combi... kiss those two sheets goodbye. I used D76 1:1, 12 min. Boy, talk about terrible. Not sure what's wrong. Muddy and lack contrast. Back to school I guess.

Thankfully I took some 35mm cameras with me. At least those shots are OK.

I know some folks have had good success with the Combi, but I do see how some dislike the time it takes to fill/empty. Seems like they could have designed larger light trapped openings.

Alex Hawley · Aug 22, 2008

Welcome to Large Format. Even the best and most experience make those same flubs. Don't worry, with practice, the flub frequency goes down.

John Kasaian · Aug 22, 2008

I like the Unicolor processor with a print drum for souping film, Dirt cheap on eba-ba-ba- that auction site. There is a good article on using one to soup film on the Large Format Home Page.

Alex Hawley · Aug 22, 2008

I also use the Unicolor processor and have had very good luck with it so far. In addition to rotary processing, the unicolor drums can be used for semi-stand or extreme minimal agitation developing techniques.

David William White · Aug 22, 2008

One tip I got on my first lesson in LF (from Rob Skeoch) is to test fire the shutter at your chosen speed before pulling the darkslide. The shutter won't trip unless the lens is closed. Also tests your cable release. So test fire, then pull the darkslide, then re-cock and fire for real. Introducing that extra step has saved me some film, I'm sure.

papagene · Aug 22, 2008

I have been using the Combi tank for about 17 years with hardly a problem. Developing LF film is akin to exposing LF film... you need to take your time, and be careful, no need to rush things.
Here is what I do:
After a water bath, I shut off the lights, take the top off and pour the developer into the tank in total darkness (it is a lot easier than you might think, but does take a little practice), put the top back on and agitate. Repeat the same process for stop and fix. This process has worked successfully for me for many years.
As far as other LF goof-ups... I still make plenty of them!

gene

fschifano · Aug 22, 2008

The CombiPlan tank isn't so bad despite the naysayers' complaints. Yes, it takes a bit of practice to load the sheets properly and to secure them in place. That's what all those wasted sheets of film are good for - practice. They do take a while to fill, but even that's not too bad. The vent needs to be open for reasonably fast filling and draining. Slow working developers are your friends with this tank. You want the fill and drain times to be an insignificant portion of the total development time. As for your low contrast results, that smacks of insufficient development. Not having been there, I can't tell if the developer was too cold, your agitation insufficient, or timing too short. Chances are good though that at least one of those variables is the cause.

Craig Roberts · Aug 22, 2008

Processing

I have tray processed all of my sheet film for the last 39 years no tanks or drums or any such nonsense, lots of practice. Mistakes and a vertical learning curve were the norm. Craig

Bruce Osgood · Aug 22, 2008

With my JOBO CPE 2+ I'm developing Tmax 100 in D-76 1+1 for 9:00 minutes. A lot depends on the speed of rotation and I have no idea what yours is. The CPE 2+ travels about 75 rpm if that's any help.

A pre-wash is very important to smooth coating of developer. I'd double check your times and try and confirm them as correct.

bobwysiwyg · Aug 23, 2008

Thanks all for the feedback. I had just done two rolls of 35mm, also TMAX 400 in a 2 reel Paterson with no problem using the same methodology. I know some folks don't pre-wet, but I always have, one-two minutes, bang it a bit to dislodge bubbles, drain and pour in developer. Used the same methodology with the 4x5 in the Combi. I did notice one thing with the development, or attempt, at doing 6 sheets in the Combi. After the pre-wet, while draining it, there was a distinct blue-ish tint to the pre-wet solution. I never saw that on the 35mm or the two sheets I had done previously. It was dark enough for me to think, "what the...?"

The chemicals were all 69-70F degrees and as per habit, agitated first 30 seconds, and then 5 sec. every 30 seconds using inversion method for 12 min. One other difference was the first two sheets I ever developed were in straight D76 for the approp. time for that solution. The negatives did look under developed to me also, so perhaps I screwed up on the 1:1 somehow. Next sheets I will go back to straight D76 as a control.

As for my newbie mistake with the preview/dark slide, my lens (Symmar-S 5.6 150) it does allow you to trip the shutter even if the preview is still open, but it will close after tripping so a test fire is probably a good bet in the future in case I have forgotten to close it. Closing it is now pretty much ingrained, but the test firing would be a good double check.

TheFlyingCamera · Aug 23, 2008

the pre-wet should come out discolored. I'm surprised you never saw that with your previous development efforts.

bobwysiwyg · Aug 23, 2008

TheFlyingCamera said:
the pre-wet should come out discolored. I'm surprised you never saw that with your previous development efforts.

Good to hear, puts my mind at ease. Probably didn't notice it on the 35mm efforts as I hold the tank right over the drain when emptying and the fist 4x5 dev. effort was just two sheets. With 6 sheets, I'm sure the concentration was higher and just letting it drain sitting on the bottom of the sink gave me a better view of what was coming out.

k_jupiter · Aug 23, 2008

Funny story.
When I was in photo school in the mid 80's, you spent the first half year shooting nothing but 4x5 film. You go out and shoot these insanely heavy orbital cameras. You would then go in the darkroom, set up your trays; prewash, developer, stop, fix, and permawash. Turn off the lights, develop your film, usually 6 sheets at a time.
Turn the light on, the trays would be filled with from left to right; green, red, yellow, clear, and blue. If they weren't, you done something wrong and were usually looking at 6 pieces of clear plastic.

Even those of us who have been working a long time get cornfused when we break out and try something new. I recently loaded a rb67 220 film back up with 135 film (to make 24x70 panoramic images). After shooting a dozen shots, I realized the damndable dark slide was right where I left it, still in the film back. An awful lot of 135 clear film on that one.

Most people use their combi tanks as dip and dunk. Me, I like the light and use a small Jobo tank with spiral holders for real daylight development.

Hang in there.

tim in san jose

butterfly · Aug 24, 2008

Combi-plan tanks are fine! Pre-soak the film for a few minutes to avoid uneven development. Unscrew the top a little when filling. I can fill mine in under 30 seconds. I do not have any problems at all.

The only problem I've had (see my post of a few days ago) - don't leave unexposed film in the tank for any length of time! Stupid mistake which resulted in fogging.

Richard Kelham · Aug 24, 2008

The discoloured water from the pre-wash contains dye from the anti-halation layer and is quite normal. I have never bothered with a pre-wash and not had any problems as a result.

Nowadays I use a Combi tank. Use the guide strip for loading the films, and make sure your developer dilution will give you a long enough processing time to allow for the slow filling and emptying; do that and you shouldn't have any problems at least with the processing end of things. Problems with the camera are another matter...

I guess we have all learnt the hard way the importance of double-checking each step of the way!

bobwysiwyg · Aug 24, 2008

make sure your developer dilution will give you a long enough processing time to allow for the slow filling and emptying;

Richard,

Just so I understand, the fill/drain time should be part of the total development time called for (this has been my assumption), or in addition to?

I can fill mine in under 30 seconds.

Butterfly,

I didn't time my fill/empty time but is sure seemed longer than that. Maybe I will do some practicing with the Combi with the film holder in and just some water.

Thanks all for the feedback. In analyzing the negatives, I believe the problem is related to the development. Oddly, one negative was more or less fine, two sandwiched together because of may gaff loading them to the same slot. The others were dark/muddy with barely an image. Either I did not fill enough, used poor agitation, etc.

bill spears · Aug 24, 2008

I sympathise with anyone struggling with large format. After 20 yrs of rollfilm photography I was desperate to move into sheet film and it has only been recently, (because of the drop in price of film cameras) that I was able to afford a 5x4 monorail with lenses.
So excited I was, to start experiencing this wonderful world that so far I'd only read about !
Now, after 12 months of intense activity in this wonderful world, I'm having second thoughts ! Definately a case of ' BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR !! '
The biggest discovery I made was the fact that after all the obstacles one has to overcome with portability, setting up, processing etc etc..... up to a certain image size, somewhere around 16x20, for me, I can't really see any significant increase in image quality !! Add to this the fact that alot of potentially great images have been missed because of the light changing too fast and you're not able to react quick enough to catch the ' Magic Moment'
After every outing I swear its the last with a large camera but I still keep getting seduced by it !??

Anyway, apologies for this rant. Reading the thread just got me going !!
To try and offer any processing advice, all I can say is my chosen method for deving sheet film is the Paterson orbital. Easy to load, low chemical volume and work in daylight. I use it basically as a tray with a lid on, agitating by hand in an irregular fashion to aviod flow patterns. There needs to be some modification to the smooth surfce of the tray base inside, to stop the film sticking though. I did this by small blobs of epoxy glue dripped onto the plastic as suggested by Dave Miller. There are various other bodges of which have been disscussed here elsewhere.
I'm still not 100% happy though with this set up as there have been a few problems lately, but it'll do for now !! I'm steering clear of combi tanks because I've heard SO many people cursing them but then again its obvious that some here use them fine.

Oh well.... the Sinar is looking at me on top its tripod and the light looks good outside...?? Dammn - no darkslides loaded !!

Bill

bobwysiwyg · Aug 24, 2008

I take it that the Paterson Orbital is no longer made?? I must admit the lower chem volume is intriguing. Saw a video on one of the tube processors as well, intriguing as well for the same reason. It just so happens I had six sheets or more to develop. I'm not sure how often that will be the case anyway.

Bob F. · Aug 24, 2008

The Jobo 25xx series reels and tanks are cheap enough on the auction site and are made to a high standard. Using them on a CPE-2 or with semi-stand development are all I have ever used for 5x4" so I can't compare with other LF development methods but I've never had a problem with them. A bit tricky at first to load, but after a few tries with waste film (I've got plenty of that to hand ) you get the hang of it.

I consider myself lucky if I manage to mess up less than 1 in five shots in LF so I try to use the same sequence when preparing to shoot (which includes always dry-firing the shutter before pulling the slide - that alone has saved me innumerable wasted shots!).

Have fun, Bob.

Martin Aislabie · Aug 24, 2008

Hi Bob - some advice from a 5x4 newbie of just about 12months

Darkslides in place - oh yes - done lots of that - but I have leaned a trick to help me.

I pre-fire the shutter a few times just to check and make sure I have closed the pre-view diaphragm – it makes a different noise open/closed

I also use the darkslide as a flag for the lens (left hand flagging the lens and right hand holding onto the shutter release)

I still mess up – but less often with this technique.

As for the CombiPlan tank

I only do 4 sheets of film at a time – use the innermost and outmost guides on each side to maximise the gap between the sheets of film.
I have also leaned having fully inserted the film into the holder to then lift the sheet out about 1 inch and then push it back down – it is more likely to stay in the guide – so less chances of the sheets touching
I learned this one by using sheets of ruined exposed but undeveloped film in the daylight and watching the loading process carefully – but then maybe it’s just me.
I use my CombiPlan as a mixture of Dip and Dunk and normal agitation
I have several Combi tanks pre-filled with Dev, Stop, Fix and first wash
I pre-load the Combi Holder with film and then drop the holder into the first pre-filled tank of dev.
Agitate for the fist 20 sec using the handle of the Film Holder
Then pop the top on the tank and seal carefully
You can then agitate as you would for a Paterson/Jobo roll film tank
As the end of the dev time approaches, I remove the lid (in the dark of course) and wait for the timer to bleep.
When it does, I lift out the Holder and drop it into the second tank pre-filled with Stop
Don’t bother with putting the top back on but vigorously agitate the Holder in the Stop
The out of the Stop and into the 3rd tank – pre-filled with Fix
Again – I don’t bother with the lid and do this in the dark
After 2 mins of agitation in the fix I stick the lights on and finish off the process in the light.
It means you need to invest in several CombiPlan Tanks – but I can then start processing the next batch of film without waiting for the original holder to be finished and dried

I have found you can substitute Lock and Lock food containers for CombiPlan Tanks (similar size and shape) – but they become chemically stained and you need to do these process stages in the dark as they are made from translucent plastic

Martin

brucemuir · Aug 24, 2008

The blue tint is normal, that is the anti-halation stuff in the film base.

It's not always as noticeable depending on what film you're souping.

Tri X 400 has it strong and T Max is kinda magenta-ish. I prewet as well and with 4x5 even use a touch of Sodium Meta Borate and have found from experience it helps with more even development of sheets since I use trays.

The pre wet helps get out the tint to the film which keeps you from over fixing trying to get the film base clear.

Keep shooting and that first perfect neg makes you forget all the flubs.

goodfood · Aug 24, 2008

As you said you new in large formate, didn't you load your film back side out in the film holder?

Phillip P. Dimor · Aug 25, 2008

I've made every mistake imaginable and I'm sure I'll continue to do so. The only thing that has changed is that i'm much more cautious and deliberate. You'll get there. As far as developing goes.. whatever works and whatever you like. I screw up my Uniroller Unidrum atleast once a month and many people find that to be foolproof.

The best advice i've found is that nothing is perfect and neither are you but each time you make a mistake you can learn from it.. and keep rolling with it. I went from 35mm to 4x5 to MF. I only play with 35mm toy cameras and small rangefinders when i'm bored. Everything else is with the hassy or pentax if it moves quick, or the 4x5 if it moves slow.
I'll bet you that the next time you try, you won't make the same mistake. That's progress!

mike-o · Aug 25, 2008

Like Phillip, I went from 35mm to 4x5, and then on to MF. Once you've experienced the image that a larger negative can deliver, there is very little use for the 35mm format.

Making mistakes is part of the learning process, and in retrospect, part of the fun. The biggest mistake you can make would be to give up, or not shoot enough to really learn the format and develop good habits.

One habit I have is, like others here, is to trip the shutter a few times before pulling the dark slide. I usually look into the lens at the same time, which allows me to double check the aperture and listen to the shutter for any anomalies. It also gives me a few extra seconds to mentally run through the set up and double check if I've missed anything. I still make many mistakes, some embarrassingly stupid, but the more I do it, the better it gets.

I use the unicolor drum for processing, and it works fine for me. I start the timer after I've poured in the chemicals, and I stop it before I pour them out. The important thing is to be consistent, and the most important thing is to have a good time.

bobwysiwyg · Aug 25, 2008

Round Two..what a disaster... back on track?

Not that the picture is all that exciting, but it seems I just flubbed the development first go-round. I did go back to straight D76 on this one since it worked fine the first time, but shouldn't D76 1:1, with appropriately adjusted dev. time work also. I noticed in the Kodak tech sheet info. for TMAX 100, it gave some suggested times/temps for 1:1 in small tanks. It seems the Combi fits somewhere between small and large? Anyway, should 1:1 work? It could save some chems while I'm learning.

Notice the band along the left. I'm guessing this was from not loading the holder correctly. I took an old sheet just now and I guess I should have ensured the sheet was slid all the way in before closing the hinge.:rolleyes:

At least I seem to have gotten the dust under control. The first two sheets I ever shot and processed looked like large biological slides with nano worms and other small critters showing.

Thanks for all the suggestions, particularly the dry firing of the shutter to ensure the preview is closed and encouragement, definitely not giving up.

Round Two..what a disaster.

bobwysiwyg

Alex Hawley

John Kasaian

Alex Hawley

David William White

papagene

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fschifano

Craig Roberts

Bruce Osgood

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TheFlyingCamera

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k_jupiter

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Richard Kelham

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bobwysiwyg

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Martin Aislabie

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goodfood

Phillip P. Dimor

mike-o

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Round Two..what a disaster.

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