Rotary processing causes streaks along the perforations, Help!

kyuseok · Jun 2, 2023

Hello, I've been using the first generation of Jobo CPE for about an year and suddenly it creates streaks along the perforations.
I already read this thread from Photrio already but since I do not do pre-rinse and I start rotating the tank right after I pour in the solution, it couldn't solve the puzzle unfortunately.

My JOBO rotates at constant, moderate speed at mode 1 and my go-to developer is Kodak D-76 stock. I thought it could be the fixer problem so I mixed a new batch of Ilford Rapid Fixer, didn't help as well.
The film was Fomapan 100 and I developed it for 5 minutes and 57 seconds at 20 degrees celcius.

What could be the cause of this calamity?
Any inputs will be appreciated! Have a nice day

Rudeofus · Jun 2, 2023

There may be a significant time frame between developer and fixer, I assume you don't use a stop bath either.

I recommend the following:

use a stop bath between developer and fixer. If there are areas under the spindle with trapped developer and poor access for fresh fixer, then you have essentially created an area with turbo charged developer, which can fog/stain your film. With stop bath you won't have this problem.
make sure, that the change between developer and stop bath takes less than 30 seconds altogether, which means 15 seconds for pouring out used developer and another 15 seconds until your film is flooded in stop bath.
use a developer/temperature combo, which takes at least 8-10 minutes to develop to whatever contrast you're after. This creates less stringent constraints for speed of fluid exchange, which is especially an issue with large film tanks (e.g. 1520 plus 1530).

kyuseok · Jun 2, 2023

Rudeofus said:
There may be a significant time frame between developer and fixer, I assume you don't use a stop bath either.

I recommend the following:

use a stop bath between developer and fixer. If there are areas under the spindle with trapped developer and poor access for fresh fixer, then you have essentially created an area with turbo charged developer, which can fog/stain your film. With stop bath you won't have this problem.

make sure, that the change between developer and stop bath takes less than 30 seconds altogether, which means 15 seconds for pouring out used developer and another 15 seconds until your film is flooded in stop bath.

use a developer/temperature combo, which takes at least 8-10 minutes to develop to whatever contrast you're after. This creates less stringent constraints for speed of fluid exchange, which is especially an issue with large film tanks (e.g. 1520 plus 1530).

Thanks for reply!
1. Yes, I've been using Ilford minimal washing method right after I drain the developer out... I will buy or mix up a stop bath instead.
2. There are not much time gap between each steps, less than 30 seconds preparing the next chemical, but I will try to act faster.
3. I used D-76 1+1, 8 minutes 40 seconds for some rolls and had the same problem. However I'll definitely consider giving more time when using stock solution.

Again, thank you so much!

Don_ih · Jun 2, 2023

Is there any chance your developer is exhausted? Have you been reusing this d76?

kyuseok · Jun 2, 2023

Don Heisz said:
Is there any chance your developer is exhausted? Have you been reusing this d76?

Hi,
I only use D76 as an one-shot developer!

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2023

Rudeofus said:
There may be a significant time frame between developer and fixer, I assume you don't use a stop bath either.

I recommend the following:

use a stop bath between developer and fixer. If there are areas under the spindle with trapped developer and poor access for fresh fixer, then you have essentially created an area with turbo charged developer, which can fog/stain your film. With stop bath you won't have this problem.

make sure, that the change between developer and stop bath takes less than 30 seconds altogether, which means 15 seconds for pouring out used developer and another 15 seconds until your film is flooded in stop bath.

use a developer/temperature combo, which takes at least 8-10 minutes to develop to whatever contrast you're after. This creates less stringent constraints for speed of fluid exchange, which is especially an issue with large film tanks (e.g. 1520 plus 1530).

Yes and we all know that stop bath with indicator is just so damned expensive!

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2023

kyuseok said:
Thanks for reply!
1. Yes, I've been using Ilford minimal washing method right after I drain the developer out... I will buy or mix up a stop bath instead.
2. There are not much time gap between each steps, less than 30 seconds preparing the next chemical, but I will try to act faster.
3. I used D-76 1+1, 8 minutes 40 seconds for some rolls and had the same problem. However I'll definitely consider giving more time when using stock solution.

Again, thank you so much!

I have done what you do in your point 1 for about 10 years now without a problem. My time gap is probably about the same as yours in your point 2. If you use the 5,10 20 dumps of water as per the Ilford minimum wash method right after the developer then that probably gives a more thorough wash that I use after the developer

In point 3 giving D76 1+1 more time than 8 minutes 40 seconds will alter the look of the negative but I don't think it will cure your problem of streaks along the perforations

I think we need to look to other causes for your problem

Unless someone can recommend a course of action that targets another possible cause, can I suggest that on the next film you go back to using inversion agitation instead of the Jobo. If this works then at least you know that something about the Jobo has changed that is causing this problem. Frankly, this is what I suspect if there has been no problem until now and you can be sure that nothing you have done on this occasion has changed

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2023

I wash for 30 seconds, dump and repeat for the time period specified by the developer manufacturer. 8 minutes for replenished XTOL.

Steven Lee · Jun 2, 2023

I have given up on this. These marks have been showing up in numerous threads here and on photo.net for many years without a clear resolution. Most of the time people agree that it's probably related to rotation speed, but there's no consensus on the right speed, alternating vs constant rotation, etc. Moreover, the problem seems intermittent. This is not specific to JOBO, in this thread a Filmomat user experienced the same problem.

I haven't ran into it myself, but I tend to use 20-30% more chemical volume than JOBO recommends. Maybe it helps. I do not know.
Good luck!

Sirius Glass · Jun 2, 2023

Steven Lee said:
I have given up on this. These marks have been showing up in numerous threads here and on photo.net for many years without a clear resolution. Most of the time people agree that it's probably related to rotation speed, but there's no consensus on the right speed, alternating vs constant rotation, etc. Moreover, the problem seems intermittent. This is not specific to JOBO, in this thread a Filmomat user experienced the same problem.

I haven't ran into it myself, but I tend to use 20-30% more chemical volume than JOBO recommends. Maybe it helps. I do not know.
Good luck!

I use 500ml while the minimum on the tank is 240ml and I have never had a problem. Since I have the lift, the tank is turning before the prewash and later the developer are added.

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
I use 500ml while the minimum on the tank is 240ml and I have never had a problem. Since I have the lift, the tank is turning before the prewash and later the developer are added.

So what amount do you use for a 35 mm film in a 1510 tank, the full 240ml ?

Thanks

pentaxuser

L Gebhardt · Jun 2, 2023

One possibility is Photoflo contamination of the reel which can cause streaking. The Jobo reels will accumulate photoflo if you used that with the film on the reels. Very hot water helps wash it away. I don’t know how it works, though being a wetting agent it may help the developer get into the emulsion quicker. since I started using photoflo off the reels I haven’t seen that issue again.

koraks · Jun 3, 2023

Steven Lee said:
These marks have been showing up in numerous threads here and on photo.net for many years without a clear resolution. Most of the time people agree that it's probably related to rotation speed

I've had rotation "wagon track" density marks some years ago, once or twice. They run longitudinally to the film. The marks shown here appear to be perpendicular with a clear interaction with the sprocket holes. I'd include a possibility of light leaks combined with light piping in the troubleshooting analysis. If it's processing related, I'd look into the direction of pour-in times (too slow?) instead of rotation patterns.

Don_ih · Jun 3, 2023

kyuseok said:
suddenly it creates streaks along the perforations

Is this just one roll? I'd try another roll. It looks like the developer is dead or the tank was contaminated with something that killed the developer - because the film looks underdeveloped. And it does look like there has been a bit of a light leak there.

If your film is old (expired) or exposed to too much heat, the emulsion could have degraded.

kyuseok · Jun 3, 2023

Steven Lee said:
I have given up on this. These marks have been showing up in numerous threads here and on photo.net for many years without a clear resolution. Most of the time people agree that it's probably related to rotation speed, but there's no consensus on the right speed, alternating vs constant rotation, etc. Moreover, the problem seems intermittent. This is not specific to JOBO, in this thread a Filmomat user experienced the same problem.

I haven't ran into it myself, but I tend to use 20-30% more chemical volume than JOBO recommends. Maybe it helps. I do not know.
Good luck!

Thanks! It's a shame to know that many people suffer from this kind of issue when rotary developing.
I should test faster rotation mode and see if this effect goes away.

L Gebhardt said:
One possibility is Photoflo contamination of the reel which can cause streaking. The Jobo reels will accumulate photoflo if you used that with the film on the reels. Very hot water helps wash it away. I don’t know how it works, though being a wetting agent it may help the developer get into the emulsion quicker. since I started using photoflo off the reels I haven’t seen that issue again.

I never thought of it could be the problem! Nowadays I just do final washing steps with only distilled water however before that I've been using photoflo/stabiliser for a long time. I will dip my reels into hot boiling water for a minute and give it a go!

koraks said:
I've had rotation "wagon track" density marks some years ago, once or twice. They run longitudinally to the film. The marks shown here appear to be perpendicular with a clear interaction with the sprocket holes. I'd include a possibility of light leaks combined with light piping in the troubleshooting analysis. If it's processing related, I'd look into the direction of pour-in times (too slow?) instead of rotation patterns.

I will check how light tight my darkbag is!

Don Heisz said:
Is this just one roll? I'd try another roll. It looks like the developer is dead or the tank was contaminated with something that killed the developer - because the film looks underdeveloped. And it does look like there has been a bit of a light leak there.

If your film is old (expired) or exposed to too much heat, the emulsion could have degraded.

Five rolls suffered from this problem until now. I'm really sorry for the confusion (I thought I mentioned in OP but I didn't), the truth is that negatives were not underdeveloped, I decreased gamma of scan file to emphasise the problem.
Films were Fomapan 100, which will expire in 2025, and D-76 was mixed on February this year. They've been stored in a PET bottle, topped up, so I don't think they've gone bad yet... But I'll mix up a new batch and see if that's the problem.

Thank you for all who invested their time to reply!

mshchem · Jun 3, 2023

kyuseok said:
Thanks! It's a shame to know that many people suffer from this kind of issue when rotary developing.
I should test faster rotation mode and see if this effect goes away.

I never thought of it could be the problem! Nowadays I just do final washing steps with only distilled water however before that I've been using photoflo/stabiliser for a long time. I will dip my reels into hot boiling water for a minute and give it a go!

I will check how light tight my darkbag is!

Five rolls suffered from this problem until now. I'm really sorry for the confusion (I thought I mentioned in OP but I didn't), the truth is that negatives were not underdeveloped, I decreased gamma of scan file to emphasise the problem.
Films were Fomapan 100, which will expire in 2025, and D-76 was mixed on February this year. They've been stored in a PET bottle, topped up, so I don't think they've gone bad yet... But I'll mix up a new batch and see if that's the problem.

Thank you for all who invested their time to reply!

Sounds like you are following correct procedure. D76 should be fine if kept as you describe.
When in doubt, start over

Mark Crabtree · Jun 3, 2023

The old Jobo models had an F and a P mark for film and paper; film was very slow rotation. They later updated their information to recommend processing film on the P setting, since that gave more even development. I'm not familiar with the current models, but I think P was about 3/4 of max speed.

Another thing that will help this problem is longer developing times. I'd try to get at least 9 minutes until you get the issue sorted. It sounds like you do not have a lift; this will have even a bigger impact in that situation. D76 1:1 might get you there and is the most popular dilution for that developer.

I always prewet with the Jobo though that was not their recommendation. I think their opinion was that prewet was not necessary, but I think any concerns they had were not related to even development.

Photoflo was an issue Jobo mentioned many years ago. I'm surprised boiling water would be okay for the reels. I have some old info that came with my used Jobos so will see what they recommended.

kyuseok · Jun 3, 2023

Mark Crabtree said:
The old Jobo models had an F and a P mark for film and paper; film was very slow rotation. They later updated their information to recommend processing film on the P setting, since that gave more even development. I'm not familiar with the current models, but I think P was about 3/4 of max speed.

Another thing that will help this problem is longer developing times. I'd try to get at least 9 minutes until you get the issue sorted. It sounds like you do not have a lift; this will have even a bigger impact in that situation. D76 1:1 might get you there and is the most popular dilution for that developer.

I always prewet with the Jobo though that was not their recommendation. I think their opinion was that prewet was not necessary, but I think any concerns they had were not related to even development.

Photoflo was an issue Jobo mentioned many years ago. I'm surprised boiling water would be okay for the reels. I have some old info that came with my used Jobos so will see what they recommended.

Yes! I've been always using F setting since I saw that was the recommended setting according to original manual! I did not know they updated their recommendation.

(Note that this is me developing a colour film using my Jobo!)

I will test the faster mode and see that helps.

mshchem said:
Sounds like you are following correct procedure. D76 should be fine if kept as you describe.
When in doubt, start over

Starting over! Better safe than sorry

Sirius Glass · Jun 3, 2023

pentaxuser said:
So what amount do you use for a 35 mm film in a 1510 tank, the full 240ml ?

Thanks

pentaxuser

500ml for all formats

Sirius Glass · Jun 3, 2023

L Gebhardt said:
One possibility is Photoflo contamination of the reel which can cause streaking. The Jobo reels will accumulate photoflo if you used that with the film on the reels. Very hot water helps wash it away. I don’t know how it works, though being a wetting agent it may help the developer get into the emulsion quicker. since I started using photoflo off the reels I haven’t seen that issue again.

PhotoFlo should not be used in Jobo processors. For years Jobo has advised removing the film form the reels after the final wash and then putting the film in a container of PhotoFlo. Reels that have been exposed to PhotoFlo should be scrubbed with a tooth bush in the grooves and rinsed in very hot water. Some run tainted reel through the dishwasher.

kyuseok · Jun 3, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
PhotoFlo should not be used in Jobo processors. For years Jobo has advised removing the film form the reels after the final wash and then putting the film in a container of PhotoFlo. Reels that have been exposed to PhotoFlo should be scrubbed with a tooth bush in the grooves and rinsed in very hot water. Some run tainted reel through the dishwasher.

Thanks!

pentaxuser · Jun 3, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
500ml for all formats

What in a tank like the 1510 that only holds 250ml max Sirius, I will take it that you use a 500ml tank at all times with 2 x 135 films each time or 1x120 or better still 2x120 . Based on what Mirko from Adox has said, do you increase exposure for films you rotary process as there appears to be a loss of shadow detail with rotary processing if you don't. I throw this into the mix in case you haven't been following the recent rotary processing thread

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Jun 3, 2023

pentaxuser said:
What in a tank like the 1510 that only holds 250ml max Sirius, I will take it that you use a 500ml tank at all times with 2 x 135 films each time or 1x120 or better still 2x120 . Based on what Mirko from Adox has said, do you increase exposure for films you rotary process as there appears to be a loss of shadow detail with rotary processing if you don't. I throw this into the mix in case you haven't been following the recent rotary processing thread

pentaxuser

The last time I checked the 1510 tank can only hold 250ml, so there is your answer. My 1540 tank takes 500ml which will handle up to 8 35mm films or 4 120 films.

mshchem · Jun 3, 2023

kyuseok said:
Yes! I've been always using F setting since I saw that was the recommended setting according to original manual! I did not know they updated their recommendation.

(Note that this is me developing a colour film using my Jobo!)

I will test the faster mode and see that helps.

Starting over! Better safe than sorry

That's a beautiful earlier machine. That is slower than the current CPP3, recommended 70 RPM (for 1500 seriestanks). As long as the film is covered should be OK. You might look for the earlier 40xx tank, I believe uses same reels, not really sure.

I couldn't afford Jobo stuff back in the 20th century

Rotary processing causes streaks along the perforations, Help!

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