Rookie Trials - tube dev

mtnjunkie · Nov 12, 2005

I have begun developing film at home, using homemade ABS tubes. My last few sheets of Arista Pro 400 (HP5+) have had a cloudy/foggy something on the non emulsion side after drying. It is concentrated in the center of the sheet. It looks different than water spots that I have seen before.
I developed in D76 stock, stopped w/ dilute vinegar, fixed w/ Kodak fix, rinsed, and washed (one sheet I used HCA on as well). Hung to dry w/ and w/o photoflo. Final washes have been in distilled or filtered water. My developer and fix were mixed w/ tap water - everything else filtered or distillled. Developing and stopping were in the tubes, everything else in trays.
Thinking that perhaps it was Ilford's anti halation layer, I swabbed one of the negs (after dry) w/ a little developer on the non emulsion side, and it seems to have removed the fog in that spot. Any thoughts?
I have tried the fiberglass screen trick in the tubes, but it has left a cross hatch pattern on the film that I'm none too fond of.
Any theories or suggestions would be welcome.
Thanks!

Frank F · Nov 12, 2005

I had a similar problem.. In my case, the film was TMAX100, and the reverse "stain" was blue.

My solution was to re-fix and re wash the film using an open tray. It worked.

The problem in my case was that the back side of the film was not getting enough exposure to the fix nor the wash, because it was touching the tube.

I have been told that the use of a "sheet" of fiberglass screening behind the film fixes the problem. I have not tried that. I use the double fix and wash approach.....

Why not try to fix and wash again... then, if that works, try the screening during development. You get the screen from the hardware store, it usually costs a few bucks for a more than lifetime supply for all of us!.

JHannon · Nov 13, 2005

This is usually the antihalation dye. Normally most of it is removed during development. With the tubes, the film presses tightly and prevents this. I follow the advice in the BTZS book and just leave the film in the fixer for at least twice as long as it takes to clear them. It usually gets rid of it. I also add a wash in hypo clear after the fixer.

I have heard the fiberglass screens work well too. I have not tried it.

--John

photomc · Nov 13, 2005

Good advice given above...I use Beler print drums for sheet film and see this on occasion (sometimes when the drum is not completely dry). A good 2 min pre-soak seems to help prevent this, but if it is there I will take the film and clear the spot in fixer until it is gone, have had not adverse problems doing this.

Keep thinking about using the screens, but as of yet, have not tried it...noticed you said you had, but were getting a bit of the pattern on the back so the presoak might help you there.

noseoil · Nov 13, 2005

Two minute pre-soak and a screen is the way to go. Make sure to remove the screen with the film, or it can scratch the backing side due to rough edges. I cut the screen to be slightly larger than the film size, then leave a pull "tab" on the long end at the middle to make removal easier. Grasp the tab of the screen with the film between thumb and finger, then slide both out at the same time. Peel them apart and wash. tim

John Bartley · Nov 13, 2005

I'm curious about this stuff on the non-emulsion side of the backing. When I first started using tubes, (which was before I had heard of APUG) I was a regular reader of the Ilford forums. I quizzed the forum members about this same sort of question "if you put the film in the tube without a spacer, how do the chemicals get to the back of the film?" One of the Ilford technicians by the name of David Carper explained on that forum that the back side of the film has nothing on it at all. All of the layers of the emulsion are on one side.

Here is that thread :

http://www.ilford.com/html/us_english/ILFOPRO/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6005

I have no idea what is on the back of the Arista film, but is it possible that it arrived there after the film was removed from the tube?

cheers

noseoil · Nov 13, 2005

John, the Efke films I use have an anti-halation backing (blue water comes out with the presoak when it is poured out), as do some other brands of sheet film. If there is a backing, it can be difficult to remove without a pre-soak and screen to allow for a decent circulation of fluid behind the film. I get more even development results with a pre-soak, so this has been incorporated into my "normal" procedure. tim

Buster6X6 · Nov 13, 2005

mtnjunkie

I had same problems with EfkePL100 8X10 sheets in a Cibachrome color drum I use. I read different threads about using screen or mesh, good idea but Efke is very sensitive film and can be scratched very easily. I had some plastic revets to be used on model airplanes. I cut them out and using slow setting epoxy glued them on the wall of the drum about 8 rivets from top to bottom spaced about 1 1/2" all around the drum and woala the water can circulate around the wall behind the sheet film. No problems ever since.
Hope this helps

Greg

grahamp · Nov 13, 2005

I develop my 5x4" film in small tubes (Dead Link Removed). The film goes in with the emulsion inwards, and without any mesh backing.

Processing is: developer, stop for 30-60 seconds or longer depending on how many tubes I am working with, Fix in film strength rapid fixer for 5 minutes. Transfer to a 'Yankee' tank for washing using a pipe inseerted to the bottom of the tank.

Sometimes there is a small patch of anti-halation coating in the center of the negative after fixing. This goes away during the washing cycle, probably because the Yankee tank allows circulation on both sides. It is only dye - just rewash your negatives.

mtnjunkie · Nov 13, 2005

Thanks for all the ideas.
Refixing and rewashing have no effect. The cloud is not colored like the anti halation dye on TXT, but it seems to show up in the same place on the film - along the center of the non emulsion side. It looks more like a hard water stain - but not quite. Sort of milky.
I'm going to try a pre-soak in a tray followed by the screen. I noticed that bpm32 had a similar grid marking pattern when using the screen - if you're reading - did you find a solution?
Thanks,
Mike

Konical · Nov 13, 2005

Good Evening, mtnjunkie,

"Sort of milky." ???

Is there any possibility that your film was in the tube with the emulsion side against the tube wall?

Konical

JHannon · Nov 13, 2005

Do you float the tubes in tempered water before adding the developer?

When I first got my BTZS tubes, I had streaks and blotches in the center of the film. Only on certain sheets of film. I found that two of the tubes leak slightly.

Part of the process is to temper the tubes with the flim loaded but no chemicals. Floating them in the tempered water. When I did this, the leaking tubes allowed small amounts of water to enter and stain the film. No amount of washing or re-fixing would correct this. It appeared to be in the emulsion.

I have since sealed the tubes with teflon tape on the threads. No more problems. I found out about this from a Jobo rep. He refered to it as "Minus-density" streaks. It can also happen to some of the Jobo processors if a light trap leaks.

I hope this helps. It took me a while to figure it out and isolate the bad tubes.

Regards,
John

George Collier · Nov 13, 2005

Sandy King started a thread about tube processing a couple of months ago, and somewhere in it, someone (maybe Sandy) said that the presoak should be 5 minutes. This seems like a long time to a seasoned open tray fella, but I did it my first time with tubes. The second time I got impatient and presoaked only 2-3 minutes. I had a blue stain near the middle of one sheet of film which did not clear in the fix or wash (I washed in a Gravity Works film washer which holds all the negs in parallel but separated slots). I have maintained the 5 minute presoak since then to avoid the complications of using the fiberglass screening. He also recommended loading the sheets into the tubes with a small amount (1/8 inch) hanging out one end. Then, during the presoak, you move the film back and forth with this hanging out piece, to allow more access of water into the back side of the film for the remainder of the presoak. Just before finally filling with developer and capping, slide the film into the tube. Hunkie dory.

Donald Miller · Nov 13, 2005

I agree with Tim's (Noseoil) on his approach. My experience is that fiberglass screen between the film and the tube is really important to getting the presoak and chemistry back there. I made my tubes in three parts to allow easier film removal when I use semi stand development.

wm blunt · Nov 13, 2005

I use btzs tubes in several formats and have never had to use any screen behind the film. I use both D-76 AND Pyrocat-hd with no problems. If you "wet load" the tubes the presoak and chems will be able to get to the back of the film. When I load the tubes I leave about an inch sticking above the tube and put on the cap (in the dark of course). The tempered waterbath is also my presoak. With the tube in the waterbath
remove the cap and sort of cup the film and slide it back and forth and rock it making sure water gets to the back of the film. You can slide the film completely out of the tube if you like but I have never had to in order to get the back of the film wet. Put the cap back on and let them spin for 5 minutes.
Proceed in your normal processing.

Donald Qualls · Nov 13, 2005

I've used ABS tubes (daylight fill, homemade light trapped caps) for a couple years for my sheet film, and do see residual dye in them from time to time. I found, just a few months ago, a very quick, easy dye removal method. I mix a quart of 2% sodium sulfite solution and add a teaspoon of washing soda (sodium carbonate monohydrate, around 5 g); each film gets a soak in this solution, after fixing, before going back in the tube for the wash. The solution decolors the dyes in TXT, Fomapan 100, and Classic 200 in just a couple minutes, and leaves the emulsion alkaline so washing is more effective.

I don't presoak at all, BTW.

Swabbing with developer probably had a similar effect because it alkalized the gelatin and the sodium sulfite was then able to decolor the dye, but you should give the film a full wash after putting developer on it, to prevent leaving developer on the film long term.

sanking · Nov 13, 2005

mtnjunkie said:
Thanks for all the ideas.
Refixing and rewashing have no effect. The cloud is not colored like the anti halation dye on TXT, but it seems to show up in the same place on the film - along the center of the non emulsion side. It looks more like a hard water stain - but not quite. Sort of milky.
I'm going to try a pre-soak in a tray followed by the screen. I noticed that bpm32 had a similar grid marking pattern when using the screen - if you're reading - did you find a solution?
Thanks,
Mike

My suspicion would be that it is anti halation dye. A long pre-soak may help some, but with some films (TMAX 100 and TMAX 400, Plus-X Pan, etc.) the only effective way I have found to completely get rid of the dye is a 10-20 minutes soak in Kodak Hypo Clear, or in a solution that contains about one tablespoon of sodium sulpite per liter of water.

It is not unuusal for the dye to be left in the center of the film. If you think about how it fits in the tube you will quickly understand that this is the part of the film that pushes harder againt the wall of the tube, thus restricting removal of the dye during processing.

Sandy

mtnjunkie · Nov 14, 2005

Great responses! Thanks everyone. I went ahead with a presoak (5min) out of the tube and used the screen last night - and it worked. No cloudy stain or cross-hatching from the screen. I may experiment with the wet loading, HCA or sodium sulfite soak in the future. Fortunately, only film test sheets were marred by my learning.

frednewman · Nov 15, 2005

Hi - For proper use of BTZS tubes we have directions written by Phil Davis which you can download from the View Camera Store website. You will see a note at the bottom of the BTZS tube description you will see - "For more information, please visit this products webpage." Click on webpage and you can download the instructions and print out a copy for yourself. Please read steps 11 and 12. Basicall you have to fix the film outside the tubes in a tray or hangers and the remaining anti-hallation stain will go away. The problem usually occurs when you fix the film in the tubes. Hope this helps.

Fred Newman

Rookie Trials - tube dev

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