Romani people in France

cowanw · Sep 2, 2021

Grain Elevator is correct.
Partly I was trying to direct the conversation away from politics onto something photographic and secondly I actually think that you have succeeded; dignity, sadness and maturity very much do come through. However I am of the opinion that if you wish to speak about a specific group in such circumstance (of which there are so many in the world) the photographs do need some language attached to them. I suppose alternately you could have depicted a few visual tropes that we might associate with the Romani; colourful wagons, head scarves or to make it French, a child presenting a brass ring for gold to a tourist - etc.- to do so would result in trivializing detriment of your image.
Your pictures are top notch I think but need words to make their point.

Dali · Sep 2, 2021

Laurent Conduché said:
Thank you !
I'd like to tell more about this documentary but my lack of language don't help to be precise.

You seem very interested in this political point.
I'm also surprised that you don't have the curiosity to inform yourself.
I am not very comfortable with your emphasis on this subject.
I suggest you read some neutral information, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_France

Sorry but right from the start, you make a political comment: "I participated in a report on the systemic racism suffered by the Romani people in France". These are your words.

Later in the thread, you make another political comment: "they feel devalued because of the living conditions imposed on them by the institutions". These are your words again.

As of today, I don't have the feeling that France is a dictature, people daily fleeing by the thousands, and practice apartheid on targeted parts of their population. This is why I am a bit surprized by your various comments. As wiltw stated above, what you say is not clearly translated in your pictures. Yes, living conditions of Roms shown in your pictures don't look that great but it can found across all ethnicities. Don't you have the feeling that a (too) great part of Europeans live under the poverty line? If you feel it too, don't you mix racism and class warfare? I know that it is trendy these days but I won't fall with you in this trap.

These is my "neutral" comment. If you want my "less neutral" comment, feel free to pm me as I had my share of experience with these guys.

markjwyatt · Sep 2, 2021

grain elevator said:
Your pictures do tell the "story". I also see a lot of joy despite difficult circumstances. The other poster is right though, how can we know this is in France? You didn't include the obligatory baguette in every picture . Pictures telling a whole story is a myth. We always need background info.

A picture may be worth a thousand words, but absent the 5-6 words that create context, it might not be enough. That being said, I really like the pictures, but they speak of living below the poverty with dignity and some joy. I do not see the rest of the politics, but cannot say they do not exist.

BrianShaw · Sep 2, 2021

The only critique I could offer is regarding "France"... these wonderful photos could be of the Romany people anywhere.

grain elevator · Sep 3, 2021

BrianShaw said:
The only critique I could offer is regarding "France"... these wonderful photos could be of the Romany people anywhere.

How curious that now several people have made this point. You realize that the OP is from and in France? Would you demand the same from a photographer from your country, taking pictures in your country? Is it because he added the info that it's in France, so the pictures need to prove that extravagant claim?

Laurent Conduché · Sep 3, 2021

grain elevator said:
How curious that now several people have made this point. You realize that the OP is from and in France? Would you demand the same from a photographer from your country, taking pictures in your country? Is it because he added the info that it's in France, so the pictures need to prove that extravagant claim?

Thank you a lot. It's exactly how I feel.

cowanw said:
Your pictures are top notch I think but need words to make their point.

Thanks

Maybe my english is not precise enough : when I said on the original post
A few years ago, I participated in a report on the systemic racism suffered by the Romani people in France.
I meant these photos are a part of a reportage (written). The systemic racism was the main subject of the report, a huge and tricky subject that I can't pretend argue with my photos only.
We took the choice to publish "humanist" photographs only. It's about "return to these people their humanity" (I hope this sentence make sens in english).
I even didn't take photos of the destruction of their slum by the authorities.

By the way, I know some people don't stand talking about racism because of their fuzzy positions. That's why I decided to mention "in France"... to add distance. My bad

BrianShaw · Sep 3, 2021

grain elevator said:
How curious that now several people have made this point. You realize that the OP is from and in France? Would you demand the same from a photographer from your country, taking pictures in your country? Is it because he added the info that it's in France, so the pictures need to prove that extravagant claim?

Nothing is being “demanded” and there is no “extravagant claim” being made. A title is a title. The title describes a collection of very fine photographs. It’s a fine title. Without the title it might not be apparent that scenes of people in France were being documented. That’s all… don’t make more out of a very minor comment than is really intended.

cowanw · Sep 3, 2021

Laurent, I feel like I owe you an apology. I posted to try to get the trend of the thread away from politics and start a more photographic discussion about photo essays in general, but succeeded only in creating an opportunity for a latent expression of institutional bias and anger. I am sure it is disappointing for you.

Laurent Conduché · Sep 3, 2021

BrianShaw said:
Nothing is being “demanded” and there is no “extravagant claim” being made. A title is a title. The title describes a collection of very fine photographs. It’s a fine title. Without the title it might not be apparent that scenes of people in France were being documented. That’s all… don’t make more out of a very minor comment than is really intended.

OK, no problem.
It just struck me as a strange point. I can't imagine anyone asking Dorothea Lange for such a thing. Yet this photography became an icon of the Great Depression in America ... because we trust Dorothea.

Migrant Mother
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...tMother02.jpg/591px-Lange-MigrantMother02.jpg

cowanw said:
Laurent, I feel like I owe you an apology. I posted to try to get the trend of the thread away from politics and start a more photographic discussion about photo essays in general, but succeeded only in creating an opportunity for a latent expression of institutional bias and anger. I am sure it is disappointing for you.

Thank you very much for your behavior. It is really appreciated.

wiltw · Sep 3, 2021

Laurent,
I think some of the 'confusion' or 'controversy' is misinterpretation of your OP.
You mention shooting for a project

the project is about racism
the racism is against the Roma
and the Roma in the photos happen to live in France

What is the subject of the confusion is...

Do any of the above facts really reflect a question posed by you, "Do my images convey any of the above?"
Or are you merely mentioning 'these photos are from a past project, which I wished to post on this forum.' ?

What were your original intentions?

Personally, I interpreted that you were posing the question #1, and "am I successful in conveying those facts in thes images?"
But if I go back to OP, I also see that perhaps you were merely ponting out, "incidentally I shot these for a past project" and you were not seeking commentary on racism or class segregation, nor society biases.

I had earlier posted that they were powerful images, but I did not see 'racism' nor 'in France' nor 'racism againts the Roma'...the photos were a powerful 'character study' of those not living in prosperous conditions. But maybe that was answering a question that you never intended to ask!

BrianShaw · Sep 3, 2021

wiltw said:
Or are you merely mentioning 'these photos are from a past project, which I wished to post on this forum.' ?

I thought this was the intent. But since this is a discussion forum, I was just discussing.

Cholentpot · Sep 3, 2021

Laurent Conduché said:
OK, no problem.
It just struck me as a strange point. I can't imagine anyone asking Dorothea Lange for such a thing. Yet this photography became an icon of the Great Depression in America ... because we trust Dorothea.

Migrant Mother
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...tMother02.jpg/591px-Lange-MigrantMother02.jpg

Thank you very much for your behavior. It is really appreciated.

I can never unsee the thumb.

runswithsizzers · Sep 3, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I can never unsee the thumb.

Funny! <the case of the missing thumb>

Cholentpot · Sep 3, 2021

runswithsizzers said:
Funny! <the case of the missing thumb>

Alas a pay wall.

I just want someone to sneaky sneak photoshop the thumb out cleanly.

cowanw · Sep 3, 2021

Speaking of the Migrant Mother, Laurent, I rather think she makes the case for the need for context. Here is an interesting essay about the photograph.
https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/316062
Now as then nobody knows who she really is or that she never was a pea picker.

Laurent Conduché · Sep 4, 2021

cowanw said:
king of the Migrant Mother, Laurent, I rather think she makes the case for the need for context. Here is an interesting essay about the photograph.
https://press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/316062
Now as then nobody knows who she really is or that she never was a pea picker.

To me, this is the point!
This story tell us what makes a photograph powerful. It's about feelings, not about proofs or demonstration. Unfortunately, it's a double-edged sword. You want to lie, take a picture.
We, as photo reporters, have to choose a pictorial language. No matter the one you pick, you can say truth or lies.
My choice is to let writers do their information work and I focus on human feelings.

bdial · Sep 4, 2021

Laurent, Are you familiar with Allen MacWeeney’s book Irish Travelers, Tinkers no more?
It is a photo essay about the Irish Romani people, and he also made a film, which looks to be available on Vimeo. About 10 years ago, Vermont Center for Photography put up a show of the work, which I was able to see in person.
These are stories that (unfortunately) need to keep getting told.

Film on Vimeo
Book
Alen’s website; https://www.alenmacweeney.com/

Laurent Conduché · Sep 4, 2021

Wow ! Many many thanks to you @bdial !!!
I didn't know Alen MacWeeney and his work on Romani People. I guess you understand how I feel close to his speech.
This is a real gift. Thanks again.

runswithsizzers · Sep 4, 2021

Cholentpot said:
Alas a pay wall.

I just want someone to sneaky sneak photoshop the thumb out cleanly.

Sorry about the link. Maybe <this one>? But obviously, you already know the story.

Ko.Fe. · Sep 5, 2021

Looks like Romani is new word for gypsies. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/roma-gypsies-in-prewar-europe
Those are not unique at all.

BrianShaw · Sep 5, 2021

If I’m not mistaken the word “gypsy” has been considered a pejorative term for quite a while. I’ve heard the euphemism “traveler” used in polite company, and as pointed out by bdial, above.

Laurent Conduché · Sep 6, 2021

My choice is to use the word they use themselves.
These families use the word Rrom (yes, 2 r at the beginning, sometimes 1 r in french). I've made some researches, this word seem not to exist in english and the "best" translation I've found is "Romani people".
The original title of the report is "Rroms, nous parlons d'hommes" which means "Romani people, we talk about humans".

jtk · Jan 28, 2022

Laurent, you are mistaken. Gypsies of course do routinely use the term "gypsy" to refer to themselves, especially related to music or they use Roma.

Ordinarily they speak the language of the country they have adopted, such as French or Belgian or perhaps Dutch or German and for practical reasons they usually speak English as well. They casually mix languages when they speak. sing, or post online (they conduct constant online chatter).

Their relationship with France is getting worse due to the return of French Fascism so I would expect many to flee to Holland or Germany. It's shouldn't be forgotten that millions of gypsies died in death camps. I think "Romania" is becoming even more difficult for them now than it was during Soviet Union ("Romania" isn't the reason for the term "Roma").

jtk · Jan 28, 2022

Important gypsy musicians.

jtk · Jan 28, 2022

With French musicians as well...

Romani people in France

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