Romani people in France

Dali

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Systemic racism... I like this kind of wording which is loaded by itself... Let's say to be neutral that they obey different codes from the rest of the population.
 

Pieter12

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Dali said:
Systemic racism... I like this kind of wording which is loaded by itself... Let's say to be neutral that they obey different codes from the rest of the population.
Click to expand...
It's still racism, tribalism, discrimination. Call it what you'd like, people suffer because of it.
 

wiltw

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The Romani are 'segregated' in many different societies/countries. Is that due to their own choices
  • not only in lifestyle/occupation (copper working, silver working, etc.), but
  • in choosing to be in communities among other people who are 'like them'?
A travel program by Rick Steves, with a segment about the Romani in the northern part of Romania, makes it appear to be strongly by choice, not by segregation from the mainstream. Perhaps the truth is that a bit of both are at play.
 
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BrianShaw

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wiltw said:
Perhaps the truth is that a bit of both are at play.
Click to expand...

It's both. I was exposed to the Romani travelers in England. Yes, they can be pests and, yes, there is a real dislike (if not hatred) of them and their lifestyle. I met one in a very personal relationship... while mom was trying to sell me a flower her little girl just reached into my pocket.

Nice pictures of a very unique people!
 

Pieter12

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Sometimes groups are segregated because their lifestyle or appearance is not accepted by others. People are tribal and afraid of difference. That goes both ways.
 

wiltw

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Pieter12 said:
Sometimes groups are segregated because their lifestyle or appearance is not accepted by others. People are tribal and afraid of difference. That goes both ways.
Click to expand...

'Ghettos' exist all over the world, folks living in communites with other who are 'like them'. Collections of Italians in NY, Boston, San Francisco; collections of Japanese in old SF; collections of Cubans in Miami....folks wanting to be where they can more readily buy what they are accustomed to having at home, speaking the same/similar language as others around them. Some eventually become tourist attractions (Chinatown SF, Jewish quarter of Manhattan, Greek town in Chicago, Detroit and Toronto) while others languish with lower income populations. The classic 'Irish cop' stereotype arose because of communities with similarity of occupation.

Sometimes the ghettos are artificially created by authorities, like the 120,000 Japanese rounded up and put into US internment camps during WWII, in spite of the fact that many were naturalized or native born American citizens with zero allegiance to Japan. Approximately two-thirds of the internees were US citizens!
Indoctrination fi,ms for the US public made it SEEM that the Japanese people packed up and took much of their belonging in trucks/busses to the camps, the reality is one or two suitcases of clothing were permitted. Information published in encyclopedias said, " Internees lived in uninsulated barracks furnished only with cots and coal-burning stoves." The reality was that they were given straw mats to sleep on, and bathroom facilities with zero privacy within the large rooms of toilets and showers.
The Supreme Court eventually determined that the government could not detain a U.S. citizen whose loyalty was recognized by the U.S. government. Five decades later, the US finally distributed reparation payments to about 80,000.

Asians were not the only ones targeted...at least 600,000 Italians and Italian Americans—many of them naturalized citizens—swept up in a wave of racism and persecution during World War II. Hundreds of Italian “enemy aliens” were sent to internment camps like those Japanese Americans were forced into during the war. More than 10,000 were forced from their homes, and hundreds of thousands suffered curfews, confiscations and mass surveillance during the war. Oddly, only 11,507 people of German ancestry were interned during the war.

A military 'ghetto' was the 442nd Infantry Regiment. the 442nd Infantry Regiment was an infantry regiment of the United States Army. The regiment is best known as the most decorated in U. S. military history and as a fighting unit composed almost entirely of second-generation American soldiers of Japanese ancestry who fought in World War II.
 
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MattKing

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It is photography of a cultural and political reality.
Perhaps we could put a bit more emphasis here on the photography depicted.
 

cowanw

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Given the goal in the OP, I wonder how these images speak to that or how these images advance the argument. As opposed to showing a group of families in very basic economic circumstances; images that might be any number of groups in any number of countries. In other words, how do these images speak to Romani in France and demonstrate any persecution they may experience. Could not these pictures be subject to any number of populations or circumstances. How do these pictures tell the story?
 

BrianShaw

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This photography, to me, shows that these are real people… individuals with a soul, like the rest of us.

I’m assuming that these folks live in France, but they don’t seem much different from the Romany I encountered in England.
 

nmp

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BrianShaw said:
This photography, to me, shows that these are real people… individuals with a soul, like the rest of us.

I’m assuming that these folks live in France, but they don’t seem much different from the Romany I encountered in England.
Click to expand...

You are right. There is an ethnic link between various gypsy groups starting from Northwest India (Rajasthan) through Egypt, Turkey, Romania, all the way to Spain. There was a beautiful movie depicting them, that these photographs reminded me of, called Latcho Drom:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latcho_Drom

(Yes, it can be termed as systemic - remember Nazis?)


These photographs are beautifully haunting. Thanks to the OP for sharing.


:Niranjan.
 

Dali

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Godwin's law at work after 16 posts... not bad!
 
  • nmp
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Laurent Conduché

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Thank you all for your messages.
English is not my native language, I hope I won't write something that I don't mean.

Meeting these families has been a great life experience. It took a while before they agreed to be photographed. I fully understand this, because they feel devalued because of the living conditions imposed on them by the institutions.
Anyone of you "wondering how these pictures speak to that". Well I guess this job is a big failure then. I intended to talk about dignity, sadness and maturity. In my opinion, children are particularly expressive: sadness, dignity and exceptional maturity. Living a while with these people was a big step to me.
Racism is a monstrosity.
 

grain elevator

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Your pictures do tell the "story". I also see a lot of joy despite difficult circumstances. The other poster is right though, how can we know this is in France? You didn't include the obligatory baguette in every picture . Pictures telling a whole story is a myth. We always need background info.
 

Dali

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Laurent, what institutions are you talking about and what do you mean by "living conditions imposed on them"?

Be explicit.
 
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Laurent Conduché

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Thank you !
I'd like to tell more about this documentary but my lack of language don't help to be precise.

Dali said:
Laurent, what institutions are you talking about and what do you mean by "living conditions imposed on them"?

Be explicit.
Click to expand...
You seem very interested in this political point.
I'm also surprised that you don't have the curiosity to inform yourself.
I am not very comfortable with your emphasis on this subject.
I suggest you read some neutral information, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people_in_France
 

wiltw

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Laurent,
Left me see if I can help you to understand where we fail in our understanding. You need to understand that many issues are very insular...the situation locally is understood by local residents, as are the local politics. But often only a short distance away (25km or 50 miles) that same understanding of the situation and its politics, is unknown!

Reading that link you provided, we know many Romani were returned to their country of origin, but not an understanding of "Why". One can only guess the problems that might have been attributed (rightly or wrongly) to one ethnic group. I am not judgemental, knowing virtually nothing about their situation in France, and I have the same question of understanding the background story as Dali, as posed by him in post 22.

You have presented some powerful images of a group of people;. similarly we can provide some powerful images of homelessness here in the US. But as pointed out, from the images I do not 'get it' that these people are the oppressed in France; I can see they are not even middle class people, but that exists anywhere, even without repression.
So the photos do not convey sufficiently 'repression' nor locale; I see a 'character study' in those photos.
Here in US, the native Americans live on reservations, not even in 'middle class, and the 'repression' is something that that occurred 150 years ago forcing them to move their homeland to a 'reservation', and they are not even now typified by median income, but you would not understand that repression without reading about it being part of history. Similarly we do not have an understanding of what occurred and what continues to occur in France. Homeless people here in US are living in poverty, but their homelessness is not due to repression, simply there by unfortunate circumstances.
So (I don't know this answer) HOW does one pictorially represent poverty due to 'repression' from 'unfortuanate circumstance'? And how do you pictorially depict 'in France' from 'in US'?
 
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