RolloPyro process advice please

RolloPyro has a special order of it's own to follow.

Sodium Metaborate Pre-Soak
Developer that is to be mixed 1-minute before dumping into the tank
2 quick water washes in 1-minute
Fix 5-minutes TF-4 1+3
Sodium Metaborate Post-Soak
Wash 20-minutes
Final rinse

The problem I see is that the 2 quick washes don't seem to get quite all the color out of the solution, to me that also means there's leftover pyro contaminating the fix. The fix does take on a little color and a bit different smell.

I have been dumping the fix after each run because of this. Don't necessarily want pyro tainted chem's hanging around in places they might not be expected when I'm not wearing gloves.

My question is could I reliably use a weaker mix of fix for this single use situation? If so what would be a good ratio to use?

Another alternative might be 3 washes between developer and fix.

Per Volquartz taught me to:
Solution A is absorbed by the film and developed in Solution B until the absorbed Solution A is depleted. The reused Solution A adds proportional staining. This process is temperature insensitive and does not vary the times with temperature.

I have always used fix as a one shot using RolloPyro.

Sirius Glass said:

Per Volquartz taught me to:

Sodium Metaborate Pre-Soak
Use Solution A for five minutes, drain and save the Solution A
Use Solution B for seven to eight minutes, drain and dump Solution B
Reuse Solution A for two minutes, drain and dulmp the Solution A
2 quick water washes in 1-minute
Fix 5-minutes TF-4 1+3
Sodium Metaborate Post-Soak
Wash 20-minutes
Final rinse​

Solution A is absorbed by the film and developed in Solution B until the absorbed Solution A is depleted. The reused Solution A adds proportional staining. This process is temperature insensitive and does not vary the times with temperature.

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Might be fun to try.

Per was the one that got me started with RolloPyro too.

In my case it was with both A and B in at the same time.

So do you reuse the TF-4?

msage said:

I have always used fix as a one shot using RolloPyro.

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1+3 or ... ?

markbarendt said:

So do you reuse the TF-4?

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Yes

The first pyro developer I ever used was PMK, then Rollo, back in the 90's. You don't need to use TF-4 fixer. Ilford rapid fix is fine. If I recall, once I accidentally missed the post soak in sodium metaborate and the negative looked stained enough... (HP5-Plus). Not sure if it's really necessary....

I thought it had been established that returning the developed negatives to the used developer or other alkaline solution did not increase the stain image. Rather it created an overall non-image stain that would appear to be counter productive.

Andrew O'Neill said:

The first pyro developer I ever used was PMK, then Rollo, back in the 90's. You don't need to use TF-4 fixer. Ilford rapid fix is fine. If I recall, once I accidentally missed the post soak in sodium metaborate and the negative looked stained enough... (HP5-Plus). Not sure if it's really necessary....

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My question isn't really about TF-4 or not.

I'm wondering if instead of the normal 1+3 (1/4 strength) if say a 1+7 (1/8 strength) or 1+15 (1/16 strength) would be workable and reliable if the fix is only used one shot.

My thought is that anytime fixer is reused it essentially goes through these "strength levels" as the roll count goes up.

I know I can try a clip test in each of the alternate mix ratios and double the time but was hoping someone had found the limits already so I could avoid a significant failure.

Gerald C Koch said:

I thought it had been established that returning the developed negatives to the used developer or other alkaline solution did not increase the stain image. Rather it created an overall non-image stain that would appear to be counter productive.

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Kinda like what a general pre-exposure might?

Per recommending that in certain situations wouldn't surprise me.

That's not the kind of stain I'm after though.

Gerald C Koch said:

I thought it had been established that returning the developed negatives to the used developer or other alkaline solution did not increase the stain image. Rather it created an overall non-image stain that would appear to be counter productive.

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I have read enough vetted, published research papers to prove to me that the staining is not an overall even coating, but a stain that is proportional to the film exposure. Besides since Per Volquartz recommended and used it, that is good enough for the people who knew him.

Sirius Glass said:

I have read enough vetted, published research papers to prove to me that the staining is not an overall even coating, but a stain that is proportional to the film exposure. Besides since Per Volquartz recommended and used it, that is good enough for the people who knew him.

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Per was great, the concepts he taught me are great, never really followed his work patterns in lockstep though.

Thanks Michael,

My concern is that the poison (pyro) is carrying over to the fix and that the fix will become a significant exposure hazard.

There are two washes right after the developer (as a stop) in the normal RolloPyro process. I am going to try a 3 wash set after developing on the next round and see if the third rinse comes out clean.

What are your thoughts on using a more dilute fix mix one shot?

Mark,

Rollo Pyro was developed as a variant of PMK that works better for rotary processing. Ascorbic acid is the important addition.

I use a variant of PMK by adding ascorbic acid for some expansion negatives; it is similar to Rollo Pyro. My experience is that I don't need to worry about pre- and post-treatments of any kind. I also use a regular acetic acid or citric acid stop with no problems. The stain seems a bit more pronounced and a greener than normal PMK stain. If I were you, I'd certainly get rid of the post-treatment in metaborate. The pre-soak, however, may help to decrease development times (the main reason for Rollo Pyro, in order to reduce aerial staining), and won't hurt as far as I know. The post-treatment, however, will likely increase overall stain, as Gerald points out above.

Some observations about developer carry over to the fixer.

First, even when you use an acid stop bath, there is significant carry-over of developer chemicals to the fixer. This is further pronounced if you stick to a short stop time, say 30 seconds. My fixer is always colored brown from oxidized pyro by the end of a session. A water-wash for a longer time will remove a bit more of the developer, but certainly not all. The developing agents remain in the film for a long time stopping, and only finally are removed in the wash.

If you are concerned about exposure (as you should be!) then there are a couple of approaches. First and foremost, wear gloves when processing to minimize contact with pyro-containing solutions.

I only mix up enough fix to use in a single session, never storing it for re-use. The trick is to save up enough film to process in one session for a given amount of fixer (I use 500ml). If I can't, then I'll toss the fix anyway, wasting a bit.

If you are tank processing and plan on reusing fixer, keep separate vessels for storing used fix for film and rinse its exterior and any funnels used in transferring the used fix thoroughly after filling it. Make sure you keep your gloves on till you've cleaned up after everything that has had contact with the pyro developer (this includes mixing vessels, all trays if you tray process or developing tanks and reels or drums, etc., etc.). When all is clean, you can remove the gloves.

Re-using fixer that has had pyro negatives run through it is no different than with any other developer. Do a clip test in fresh fixer to find a benchmark clearing time. Fix the first batch for three times that (yes, I know everyone says twice, but fixer exhausts with use and the actual time is thereby extended; film can easily be fixed a bit longer with no ill-effects). Clip test for each subsequent batch through the same fix and use the clearing time as your basis for figuring the time for that batch (again, 3x). When the clearing time for the used fix reaches twice that in fresh fix, discard the fixer and mix new.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

Mark,

Rollo Pyro was developed as a variant of PMK that works better for rotary processing. Ascorbic acid is the important addition.

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I am doing rotary.

Doremus Scudder said:

I use a variant of PMK by adding ascorbic acid for some expansion negatives; it is similar to Rollo Pyro. My experience is that I don't need to worry about pre- and post-treatments of any kind. I also use a regular acetic acid or citric acid stop with no problems. The stain seems a bit more pronounced and a greener than normal PMK stain. If I were you, I'd certainly get rid of the post-treatment in metaborate. The pre-soak, however, may help to decrease development times (the main reason for Rollo Pyro, in order to reduce aerial staining), and won't hurt as far as I know. The post-treatment, however, will likely increase overall stain, as Gerald points out above.

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Makes sense, sounds like that is worth a try. Actually during my lesson with Per Volquartz on using RolloPyro the post wash was absent. He was directing and no other directions were handy.

Didn't use RolloPyro for a long while after that lesson but when I started using it again I simply started using the process on the instructions included from Photographer's Formulary.

Doremus Scudder said:

I only mix up enough fix to use in a single session, never storing it for re-use. The trick is to save up enough film to process in one session for a given amount of fixer (I use 500ml). If I can't, then I'll toss the fix anyway, wasting a bit.

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I'd actually like to get efficient enough where I can do one tankful at a go. 3 rolls of 120 or 5 in 35mm. That way my films would get developed in a more timely manner, say once or twice a month.

This one run strategy is why I was considering a more dilute mix of fix. Guess I'm just going to have to experiment with that.

Doremus Scudder said:

Re-using fixer that has had pyro negatives run through it is no different than with any other developer. Do a clip test in fresh fixer to find a benchmark clearing time. Fix the first batch for three times that (yes, I know everyone says twice, but fixer exhausts with use and the actual time is thereby extended; film can easily be fixed a bit longer with no ill-effects). Clip test for each subsequent batch through the same fix and use the clearing time as your basis for figuring the time for that batch (again, 3x). When the clearing time for the used fix reaches twice that in fresh fix, discard the fixer and mix new.

Best,

Doremus

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I like the 3x idea

Michael R 1974 said:

Hope this helps.

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It does, thanks!