Rolling vs inversion, was it ever settled?

pbromaghin · Sep 20, 2013

Having been convinced that my Yankee-style developing tank will cause uneven development, I have ordered a Jobo 8x10 tank (with cap) with an insert to hold 12 4x5 sheets. I already have a cute little Uniroller. With all the arguments here and on LFF about rolling agitation vs inversion, should I roll it or shake it?

Ian Grant · Sep 20, 2013

Shake, rattle, and roll

That's the era I grew up in. I much prefer inversion but then that's what I've done for about 50 years with no problems.

Ian

ROL · Sep 20, 2013

Tray it .

CatLABS · Sep 20, 2013

This LFF thread has copious amounts of info on the matter:
http://www.largeformatphotography.i...99577-Best-4x5-Developing-Tank&highlight=jobo

This was settled a long time ago - folks will swear by the method which for them, produces excellent negatives, regardless of weather another method might be superior in any aspect.

So try it, love it and stick with it

pbromaghin · Sep 20, 2013

CatLABS, the OP in that thread has exactly the same tank as mine. The way it was explained to me, since it can't be inverted when agitating, the fluid flows across the film much more at the top than the bottom of the tank, leading to the uneven development.

markbarendt · Sep 20, 2013

Rotation works great I use a jumbo CPA 2 and it produces a really great negatives. I also have a Nikkor tank that I can invert and it works great too.

To me the real difference, in terms of output, is small; it's just a matter of finding the right time and being consistent and consistency is a very strong point of rotation especially when it's being done by a machine.

CatLABS · Sep 21, 2013

pbromaghin said:
CatLABS, the OP in that thread has exactly the same tank as mine. The way it was explained to me, since it can't be inverted when agitating, the fluid flows across the film much more at the top than the bottom of the tank, leading to the uneven development.

The thread is long and tedious at times, just click to the very last page, very last post.

If i may share my 2 cents - i have never had any success with the combi plan or yankee tanks, and on the other hand i have never had an issue with rotation, none whatsoever. If the combi plan does not work for you, its a small investment to see if rotation will do the trick. If you like it, then you can consider making a larger investment...

Bob Carnie · Sep 21, 2013

I have had to resort to inversion with grey backgrounds or grey skys when using a Jobo.
I have not had problem with any of my jobo tanks putting my hand over the opening to stop the chemicals from leaking out with inversions. Are there tanks
that this is not possible with????

this is a proceedure that I use to solve road rut issues with rotary, the first 15 seconds is critical that the chems are getting to the exposed silver evenly.

I recommend a prewash to swell and open the emulsion if one is encountering mottling.

The new Jobo 3 which I purchased from Cat labs is fantastic for custom work and has delays so you can take the tank off without the motar rotating, Invert the tank as one would with a normal stainless steel tank , then after 10 -15 seconds put on the machine hit start again and the rotation begins.

the more I use this machine the more I like. I have a heavy load of film coming in soon and I plan to process near my workstation , Now Catlabs all you need to design for the machine is a wireless headset that I can use to hear the timer count down, telling me when each step is going to end..
That would be worth its weight in gold!!!!!!!:munch:

CatLABS · Sep 21, 2013

I am sending your comment to Germany right away!

Bob Carnie · Sep 21, 2013

CatLABS said:
I am sending your comment to Germany right away!

I am very serious about this option, with all the geekoo gizzmmooos out there this should be a no brainer.

turns the machine into a semi automatic....

RalphLambrecht · Sep 21, 2013

for the sake of minimizing chem usage I rock and roll.

pbromaghin · Sep 22, 2013

Bob Carnie said:
I have had to resort to inversion with grey backgrounds or grey skys when using a Jobo.
I have not had problem with any of my jobo tanks putting my hand over the opening to stop the chemicals from leaking out with inversions. Are there tanks
that this is not possible with????

this is a proceedure that I use to solve road rut issues with rotary, the first 15 seconds is critical that the chems are getting to the exposed silver evenly.

I recommend a prewash to swell and open the emulsion if one is encountering mottling.

The new Jobo 3 which I purchased from Cat labs is fantastic for custom work and has delays so you can take the tank off without the motar rotating, Invert the tank as one would with a normal stainless steel tank , then after 10 -15 seconds put on the machine hit start again and the rotation begins.

the more I use this machine the more I like. I have a heavy load of film coming in soon and I plan to process near my workstation , Now Catlabs all you need to design for the machine is a wireless headset that I can use to hear the timer count down, telling me when each step is going to end..
That would be worth its weight in gold!!!!!!!:munch:

So Bob, are you saying to shake at first and then go to rotation? This is essentially what I have, or will have once the tank arrives.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=XIQ-UsvxFMuFyQGs5IHoDw&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAg

I can shake or roll, no problem.

pbromaghin · Sep 22, 2013

RalphLambrecht said:
for the sake of minimizing chem usage I rock and roll.

Ralph, thanks for coming out of lurker mode, I feel honored that you would think this thread worth commenting.

I use tmax developer, which is designed to be reused for several rolls, so chem usage is a factor of film square inches, not tank size. I'm glad my new tank can be used for both inversion and rolling, it will allow me to start with what is familiar and to try both.

Ronald Moravec · Sep 23, 2013

The trick with Jobo horizintal rotation is stabalize temps, turn speed to max, introduce chems as fast as possible down the funnel, after 15 sec, begin slowing rotation to film speed. With the 10 sheet drum for 4x5 sheets, just introduce chem as fast as possible.

I have used many methods over 5 decades and they all work if

The wet dry edge proceeds across the film as fast as possible and as uniformly as possible

And agitation is vigorous and random.

Anything that satisfies theses will work. Even twiddle stick works if you raise and lower the film so chems get to the middle.

Bob Carnie · Sep 24, 2013

pbromaghin said:
So Bob, are you saying to shake at first and then go to rotation? This is essentially what I have, or will have once the tank arrives.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=XIQ-UsvxFMuFyQGs5IHoDw&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAg

I can shake or roll, no problem.

Yes , when I know I have very grey backgrounds , I will put the Jobo drum in my hand and invert as I normally do with stainless, No chemisty comes out
and it has helped me with a severe problem of road ruts that were minus density on the film , which showed up in the direction of the rotation.

It seems the first 15-20 seconds of chemical development is critical and I have found this method to work.

The new Jobo allows for pauses in rotation on the fly between each process .. this stops the motor for easy on and off then hit the start and the rotation is good to go.

Rolling vs inversion, was it ever settled?

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