Rollieflex 3.5F lens condition

Diogo Miguel · Nov 19, 2020

Hello,

I would love your help on this One.

I want to buy a Rolleiflex. Not to profit from it, or sell it again. I want to buy one that can last many many years, to satisfy my photographic needs!

Tonight, i saw and hold a rollieflex for the first time. Beautiful. Amazing. The model, 3.5F. the price, 200€. Looked beautiful!
The problem.. the lens!

Questions:

- What should i look for on a rollieflex when buying one from a random seller. I want to BE prepared next time.

- When is the lens condition good enough, that can be fixable. When does it stop being fixable? When is it dead? I don't mind sending it for repair.

- I will post pics of what made me not buy this câmera. It was the lens. It scared me. It made me think it could be unreparable. Was i right not to buy it? The Shutter was not working either and the 0 count didn't move.

I ended up not buying it. For 200€! I didn't have the guts. It scared me. I wanna be prepared next time i go hunting for a Rolleiflex. That's why i need you. Here are the horror pics.

Maybe it wasn't that bad. But, i have 0 experience. Was i right not to buy it?

Thank you
Diogo Adrega

c41 · Nov 19, 2020

Hard to tell too much from your pictures here. The taking lens looks pretty heavily marked perhaps but still may well take great pictures.
You want to be able to fire it on 'B', keep the shutter open and open the back to see through and evaluate the taking lens clearly.

I can see you couldn't do that because the shutter isn't firing. No working shutter would be an immediate absolute no for me but I never repaired a Rolleiflex, only used them.

This should give you the idea of what's inside one - a lot of moving parts - best left to the experts and best not to take unnecessary risk in buying one perhaps.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0x0AAOSwkCZceGm5/s-l1600.jpg

They did make enough thank goodness that you have the luxury of choice when buying one. I would wait for one that looks reasonable and has some kind of provenance either directly from a dealer/repairer or from an owner who has some kind of service and usage history for it.

If you are committed, wait for a good one, better to get something with only minor TLC required rather than something with issues with the taking lens. Good luck, an excellent decision on your part already to get one.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 19, 2020

Those webs, looking like Spider webs, were all Over around the lens, up to the center. It looked like tree Roots. Then there was, i Guess a fungus, right in the Middle of the taking lens.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 19, 2020

c41 said:
Hard to tell too much from your pictures here. The taking lens looks pretty heavily marked perhaps but still may well take great pictures.
You want to be able to fire it on 'B', keep the shutter open and open the back to see through and evaluate the taking lens clearly.

I can see you couldn't do that because the shutter isn't firing. No working shutter would be an immediate absolute no for me but I never repaired a Rolleiflex, only used them.

This should give you the idea of what's inside one - a lot of moving parts - best left to the experts and best not to take unnecessary risk in buying one perhaps.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0x0AAOSwkCZceGm5/s-l1600.jpg

They did make enough thank goodness that you have the luxury of choice when buying one. I would wait for one that looks reasonable and has some kind of provenance either directly from a dealer/repairer or from an owner who has some kind of service and usage history for it.

If you are committed, wait for a good one, better to get something with only minor TLC required rather than something with issues with the taking lens. Good luck, an excellent decision on your part already to get one.

Thank you

Kodachromeguy · Nov 19, 2020

I think the viewing lens definitely has fungus. It is hard to tell about the taking lens. Fungus and a non-working shutter raise too many red flags for me. It is odd that you found a Rolleiflex with the distance scale marked in feet in Portugal. I suggest you keep looking for another example.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 19, 2020

Kodachromeguy said:
I think the viewing lens definitely has fungus. It is hard to tell about the taking lens. Fungus and a non-working shutter raise too many red flags for me. It is odd that you found a Rolleiflex with the distance scale marked in feet in Portugal. I suggest you keep looking for another example.

Thank you so much.

Could you guys tell me how much fungus is too much? Cause, when i see another One, i wanna know if i can clean it or not.

Yes, on the taking lens, there was One fungus right on the Middle. What you see on the viewing lens, its the same on the taking lens. Lots of webs, like Roots, going from the sides all way to the center. The photos could not capture it well. ONLy with a light pointing at the right angle.

shutterfinger · Nov 19, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Could you guys tell me how much fungus is too much? Cause, when i see another One, i wanna know if i can clean it or not.

Any. Sometimes the fungus will clean off other times it etches the glass. UV light kills fungus so sitting it in direct sunlight for a few days will kill it.
Scratches and other minor defects on the front of a lens will not affect picture quality but can cause flare/reduced contrast is strong side lighting.
The counter will not advance from 0 without film in the camera.
The Synchro Compur shutter will run about €105 - €125 for a CLA. The Synchro Compur service manual https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=7&category=2&secondary=20 shows a CN-1110-025 shutter in this camera.
Its not a beginners shutter to learn on, about a 10 in difficulty on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most difficult.
Roleiflex TLR's are complicated but not a monster when one looks at the malfunctioning section and not trying to digest the whole camera at once. https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=21&category=2&secondary=15

The camera will likely clean up to be a good working camera but will likely cost 2 to 3 times the purchase price to get it there. I would not pay more than €150 for a camera in this condition.

JPD · Nov 20, 2020

The longer the fungus has been there and been able to feed the more damage it has caused. The price seems ok, but it needs a good CLA to remove the fungus and the spores. I would think the whole camera should be taken apart and cleaned. If it has been in damp storage there might be corrosion in the shutter and the transport mechanism. If it's bad then spare parts are needed. It's a risky camera.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 20, 2020

Thank you. Incredible help. Beautiful.

Knowing this câmeras are +-60 years old, should i expect to always enconter some kind of "things" on the lens. Or should it be cristal clear?

And what does a "right deal" sound like? What should i see on the câmera to BE almost sure that it is the deal ive waiting for?

Thank you

Diogo Adrega

Dan Daniel · Nov 20, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Knowing this câmeras are +-60 years old, should i expect to always enconter some kind of "things" on the lens. Or should it be cristal clear?

My thinking on this is that the lens should appear clean and clear on 'simple viewing. If in looking at the front an back, or in photos, I can see haze or scratches or rub marks, I'll assume that the lens is in bad shape. Taking a flashlight to a 60 year old lens is usually going to show cleaning marks, dust, maybe even bring out some haze. If these are minor, well, I might go for it. But if I can see flaws without a flashlight, value drops quickly.

Unless you are prepared to pay for an overhaul, the camera should focus smoothly without delays or unevenness in motion. Rock the focus knob back and forth and the action should follow smoothly. Fire the shutter at different speeds. Look at the metal disk below the wind lever- lots of paint wear on the outer edge indicates lots of use. Wind should be smooth, with minimal feel of drag or as if you are fighting grease. Focus hood should open and close smoothly, check for evenness and bends, etc. Make sure the focus magnifier pops out. Put the camera down on a flat surface and see it it rocks on its feet. A little rocking is typical but much and you need to look at the feet and the back. See if the back seats evenly to the main body.

For all their quality, there are a lot of things to go wrong on a Rolleiflex. Some parts are weak by design- the back, the focus system, and the focus hood, for example- and will show if the camera has been treated well or not.

I have no idea what the market is like in Portugal. Ideally you can go into a store and handle one that the store will stand behind. As a newcomer, I suggest buying from established sellers who stand behind their camera. But this might not be a realistic option where you are.

cerber0s · Nov 20, 2020

I would not have bought that for 200€, there are cheaper ones to be had. A note on the film counter, it won't move unless you actually have film in the camera so it could be perfectly fine. Servicing the counter is around 60€ so it's not too bad. It is common for the shutters slower than 1/10 not to be working while the faster shutter speeds are prefectly OK. To cock the shutter you first turn the crank forwards then backwards, not just forwards (maybe you knew this already).

I bought this one, a pre war Rolleiflex Automat Model 1 a month ago for 50€. The lenses are close to perfect but the slower shutter speeds don't work. Otherwise it produces perfectly fine photos.

campy51 · Nov 20, 2020

You should look into a Minolta Autocord if you can find one with a smooth focusing lever. It's as sharp or sharper than Rolleiflex.

removedacct1 · Nov 20, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Thank you so much.

Could you guys tell me how much fungus is too much? Cause, when i see another One, i wanna know if i can clean it or not.

ANY fungus is too much fungus, IMO.It is a red flag that suggests the overall condition of the camera is going to be similarly poor. Keep shopping - its not a bargain.

Helge · Nov 20, 2020

You did well in not buying it. This is worth a symbolic amount at best. It would need expensive service for at least 200.
A perfect example of Gresham's law and Sturgeon's law of bad products flooding the market, pushing out and making people hold on to the good.
This is creating bubbles and disillusionment.
The only thing to cure this is an extensive push to openness, honesty and a way to have consequences for not abiding to those.
I guarantee you that the guy/gal trying to sell you that camera, knew full well they where trying to pass off a turd at a "standard" price.

JPD · Nov 20, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Knowing this câmeras are +-60 years old, should i expect to always enconter some kind of "things" on the lens. Or should it be cristal clear?

No. My 3,5 F has pristine lenses, and so did the 2,8F, 2,8E, 3,5E3 and Tele-Rolleiflex I've owned from this time period. I have a 3,5B, two pre-war 3,5 Automat, three Rolleiflex Standard, one Original Rolleiflex, a pre-war 4x4, and several Rolleicords from the 1930's, and they all have pristine lenses with no marks or fungus. Then some folding and plate cameras with no problems with the lenses. My oldest lenses on plate cameras are more than 100 years old with not even a single "cleaning mark".

More lenses on cameras in humid enviroments get fungus, like in tropical countries or regions near the sea. I guess there's lots of humid air in many parts of Portugal.

StepheKoontz · Nov 20, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Could you guys tell me how much fungus is too much?

Any. In most cases fungus etches the glass. Open the shutter on B and look through the lens shining the light from your phone though it. A little haze will normally clean up. Also the taking lens is much more important to be clear than the viewing lens.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 21, 2020

Im completely overwhelmed for all the information and messages. I wrote down all the information you gave me. It is precious.

For now, i will keep looking for the One. I really hope it doesnt take long, cause i spend so Many time scrolling down eBay and other websites to find it.

Thanks you!!

Diogo Adrega

cerber0s · Nov 21, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Im completely overwhelmed for all the information and messages. I wrote down all the information you gave me. It is precious.

For now, i will keep looking for the One. I really hope it doesnt take long, cause i spend so Many time scrolling down eBay and other websites to find it.

Thanks you!!

Diogo Adrega

There's this one for sale here in Sweden, near mint, no haze and all times are correct according to the ad:

https://www.tradera.com/item/430401462

Diogo Miguel · Nov 21, 2020

cerber0s said:
There's this one for sale here in Sweden, near mint, no haze and all times are correct according to the ad:

https://www.tradera.com/item/430401462

Thank you.

I Will keep an eye on that One

cerber0s · Nov 21, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Thank you.

I Will keep an eye on that One

You're welcome. There's also this one, slightly cheaper but not mint. Everything works but the longest exposure times might be a bit too long according to the seller.

https://www.tradera.com/item/430925885

Diogo Miguel · Nov 22, 2020

cerber0s said:
You're welcome. There's also this one, slightly cheaper but not mint. Everything works but the longest exposure times might be a bit too long according to the seller.

https://www.tradera.com/item/430925885

Thanks!

I really liked the first One. The second has a lot of wear.

I don't mind older models, and i think i like the image better on those. Really can't think why the f models are more desirable, other than being few years newer and some better configurations.

I Also don't mind spending up to 1000€. But, first i Will take the time and see if its possible to spend a lot less for One, in very good shape.

I will ask One more question, that its been on my mind:

Is it possible that a câmera that previously had fungus, haze and other bad stuff, was cleaned, and now looks very good, the lens look clear, BUT, since it had all those problems, the quality of the lens is now diminished, even though it looks good?

cerber0s · Nov 22, 2020

Diogo Miguel said:
Thanks!

I really liked the first One. The second has a lot of wear.

I don't mind older models, and i think i like the image better on those. Really can't think why the f models are more desirable, other than being few years newer and some better configurations.

I Also don't mind spending up to 1000€. But, first i Will take the time and see if its possible to spend a lot less for One, in very good shape.

I will ask One more question, that its been on my mind:

Is it possible that a câmera that previously had fungus, haze and other bad stuff, was cleaned, and now looks very good, the lens look clear, BUT, since it had all those problems, the quality of the lens is now diminished, even though it looks good?

I can only make a guess since I don't actually know the answer, also assuming that you only get to inspect the lenses on photos and not in real life. I'd say yes, it's possible but also that it would be a more likely scenario on a newer model with lens coating. As far as I know there was no lens coating at all on pre-war models so they should be less likely to get permanently damaged. If you get to see the lens in real life and it looks OK when shining a light through it I'd say you're golden.

shutterfinger · Nov 22, 2020

I have a Nikkor 35-135 f3.5-f4.5 zoom that developed fungus. The fungus etched the glass/coating and is limited to the center third of the element. I killed the fungus with sunlight, cleaned the element and reassembled the lens. I bought another mint copy 6 years later and cannot tell the difference between the two lens.
If the lens cell was etched then it might reduce contrast or have flare in some lighting conditions that may be controlled with a lens hood but otherwise there will be no difference.
https://www.rolleiclub.com/cameras/tlr/info/all_TLR.shtml
Most cameras have a Tessar taking lens, The F has either a 'Planar or Xenontar.

Tessar;

Planar. Schneider designs will be similar. I have no diagram for the Xenotar.

Kodachromeguy · Nov 22, 2020

I believe this diagram for the Planar lens is for a different camera. Rolleiflex 2.8 models used five element lenses. This one shows seven elements and may be the Hasselblad version. The earlier 3.5 models also used a five element Planar lens. Then, sometime in the 1970s, it was switched to six elements. The performance of both was the same, despite the claims of the internet "experts."

You are correct that lens can have a lot of coating issues and other internal problems and still take perfectly good photographs. You may experience a bit more flare when the sun is in the view, but otherwise often the damage is essentially invisible.

I hope that the OP can find a nice clean unit for his use.

Diogo Miguel · Nov 23, 2020

I hope that too!

Thank you guys for the all the help.

Rollieflex 3.5F lens condition

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