Rolleiflex, what did he do wrong?

[Frank53]

Went on a photographic outing this weekend with some friends, all using Rolleiflex camera’s.
One of us used a 3.5F and a Tele.
Shot one film with each camera.
After developing, it appeared that on both films, the first exposure was ok, the rest of the films was unexposed.
I think he made a mistake putting the rolls in the camera. Any ideas?

 

[koraks]

Well, if that's the first frame on both rolls, some kind of loading or transport failure did occur, clearly. The frames are all the way at the end of both rolls instead of at the start.

 

[Don_ih]

Those are at the start. The tape is right beside them. One is the first exposure, the other is the second.

Maybe the shutter is messed up?

 

[Ian Grant]

Well, if that's the first frame on both rolls, some kind of loading or transport failure did occur, clearly. The frames are all the way at the end of both rolls instead of at the start.

Other way around, you can see the tape at the bottom of both rolls, the tape is at the start of the film, as it goes through the camera. So these films are odd.

Ian

 

[Ian C]

It appears that the left-hand film has exposed frame #1 only, and the right-hand film has exposed frame #2 only.

Either the lens cap covered the lens or the shutter failed to fire for the other frames. The lens cap explanation seems unlikely. So, the shutter failing to fire seems the more likely explanation. I can’t think of another cause for this. The camera needs servicing to diagnose the problem and restore it to proper function.

 

[Frank53]

It appears that the left-hand film has exposed frame #1 only, and the right-hand film has exposed frame #2 only.

Either the lens cap covered the lens or the shutter failed to fire for the other frames. The lens cap explanation seems unlikely. So, the shutter failing to fire seems the more likely explanation. I can’t think of another cause for this. The camera needs servicing to diagnose the problem and restore it to proper function.

With one camera, the user made a blank shot to check if there was a film in the camera. Thats why on one film it’s frame one and on the other it’s frame two.
both camera’s have been serviced in the past year or so.
it would be very coincidental if both camera’s needed service at the same time now for the same reason.
There must be an explanation for this, but even having used Rolleiflex camera’s for almost 50 years, I can’t think of any.

 

[Kino]

I have been playing with my 3.5f and a dummy roll and cannot figure out how this was accomplished except for one reason; the hinged lens cap was left on over the taking lens on both cameras.

That seems improbable; surely someone would have noticed it even if the user did not see the issue...

 

[dpurdy]

Seems extremely unlikely that two cameras would have the same problem but I guess we live in a strange world. I would open or remove the back door and look through the lens while operating the cock and shutter. Seems that the shutters aren't working.

 

[Kino]

Was it very cold weather during your shoot?

You say they were both CLA'd recently; any chance they were improperly lubricated for a cold climate and the shutter blades simply froze shut?

Seems improbable, but...

 

[Frank53]

Around 10 degrees Celcius.

 

[retina_restoration]

Was it very cold weather during your shoot?

You say they were both CLA'd recently; any chance they were improperly lubricated for a cold climate and the shutter blades simply froze shut?

Seems improbable, but...

This is my guess also: in spite of having been serviced (are you 100% certain the shutter was completely stripped down and cleaned properly??), the shutter did not open after the first frame. This is the most likely explanation

 

[Kino]

Test the cameras for function now by opening them up and confirming the shutters fire.

Take them out into the cold for several hours and try the same test to see if the shutters lock closed.

Be sure to seal them up in a plastic bag before bringing them back in to come to room temperature.

 

[Dan Daniel]

The film was loaded properly. It would not have stopped winding if improperly loaded.

I'll add one possibility not mentioned, although I think it is highly unlikely. It is possible that the camera is set up with the actual shutter release and the wind system release out of sync. It should be that pressing the shutter button releases both the wind system and the shutter itself at the same time. This is adjustable, and it isn't uncommon for the adjustment to be off, especially after service and the shutter and linkages being played with. It should be checked and adjusted as part of final assembly.

What this can lead to is that pressing the shutter button to a certain point will release the wind system, with a quiet click noise. And then continuing to press the button will release the shutter itself. If a user stops pressing the shutter button at the first click, there will be no exposure of the film while the film can be wound forward.

To test, you need to load the camera with either a test roll of film or the backing paper. If using backing paper, have the original lead end out- frame 1. You need the bit of tape holding the film in place to trip the Automat film sensor. Or put a piece of making tape on backing paper about 30cm-45cm from end to trip it. Now slowly press the shutter button and see if the shutter is released at the same time that the wind system is released. Do a few tests.

All in all it would be hard to not fire the shutter for a whole roll unless the adjustment is pretty far off. So highly unlikely, but it is a possibility. Maybe there is a decent offset of the two operations, and maybe your friend was paying attention to press the shutter button fully on the first shot, then relaxed and was pressing the shutter button gently after that.

 

[JPD]

I was going to say what Dan did. The winding system being released way before the shutter. Both cameras should go back to the repairman.

 

[Frank53]

Thank you all for your reactions.
I’ll send a link to this discussion to my friend, so he can do some tests. If there is any news, I will post it here.

 

[koraks]

Other way around, you can see the tape at the bottom of both rolls, the tape is at the start of the film, as it goes through the camera. So these films are odd.

Ian

Errr, yeah. Insert facepalm here.

 

[250swb]

It looks like the first frame being ok is a symptom of the friction cam (the gear toothed wheel on the film takeup side of the film chamber) not engaging with the film counter and then the film winds all the way through the camera without re-cocking the shutter, which if a new user they may not realise until they've run the whole film through. Basically the camera needs a CLA.

 

[Frank53]

The film was loaded properly. It would not have stopped winding if improperly loaded.

I'll add one possibility not mentioned, although I think it is highly unlikely. It is possible that the camera is set up with the actual shutter release and the wind system release out of sync. It should be that pressing the shutter button releases both the wind system and the shutter itself at the same time. This is adjustable, and it isn't uncommon for the adjustment to be off, especially after service and the shutter and linkages being played with. It should be checked and adjusted as part of final assembly.

What this can lead to is that pressing the shutter button to a certain point will release the wind system, with a quiet click noise. And then continuing to press the button will release the shutter itself. If a user stops pressing the shutter button at the first click, there will be no exposure of the film while the film can be wound forward.

To test, you need to load the camera with either a test roll of film or the backing paper. If using backing paper, have the original lead end out- frame 1. You need the bit of tape holding the film in place to trip the Automat film sensor. Or put a piece of making tape on backing paper about 30cm-45cm from end to trip it. Now slowly press the shutter button and see if the shutter is released at the same time that the wind system is released. Do a few tests.

All in all it would be hard to not fire the shutter for a whole roll unless the adjustment is pretty far off. So highly unlikely, but it is a possibility. Maybe there is a decent offset of the two operations, and maybe your friend was paying attention to press the shutter button fully on the first shot, then relaxed and was pressing the shutter button gently after that.

On behalf of my friend, thanks Dan.
He did the test you suggested and found that this is exactly the problem.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I hope the repair shop takes them back in and corrects this.

 

[Kino]

Dan's the man on Rollei TLRs!