Rolleiflex slow speeds & tolerance

Søren · Dec 10, 2014

Dear APUG members,

I inherited a wonderful Rolleiflex from my father and two weeks I finally gave it to be CLA'd since the low speeds were running very slow (at 1sec it took the shutter around 10sec to close).
However, now I got it back and at 1sec it is still a bit slow. I would estimate that at '1sec'-setting the shutter opens maybe 1.5 seconds or even a bit more, definitely noticeably longer compared to my other cameras.
A friend of mine said that this might still be tolerable, because you only can adjust the speeds at around 1/125 to 1/30. Is this true?
Say the camera works fine in general and I don't get noticeably over or underexposed images at the speeds on usually shoot at, is this totally fine or should complain to the technician? I just would like to hear a third opinion before I complain about it for no reason.
Thanks in advance & best regards
Soeren

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 10, 2014

Which Rolleiflex model is it? it depends on how old the camera is as to whether this variance is in tolerance and if it can be further refined. Frankly, so long as you're shooting negative film, a half-stop overexposure is for all intents and purposes meaningless. And if the shutter is that variable anyway, I wouldn't shoot transparency film in it in the first place.

snapguy · Dec 10, 2014

suggest

I suggest you ask your tech in a nice way if the longish exposure time is what you can expect from that camera/model after a CLA.

Sirius Glass · Dec 10, 2014

snapguy said:
I suggest you ask your tech in a nice way if the longish exposure time is what you can expect from that camera/model after a CLA.

Get a CLA.

BrianShaw · Dec 10, 2014

A 50% error after CLA may indicates that the "A" wasn't done quite as good as it should have been done.

But either before complaining (or as part of the complaint) it would be good to have the actual shutter speeds actually measured. Estimating is good but not really good enough to support a complaint. Sometimes I've found that M-synch delay mechanism makes the shutter speeds to "sound" longer to the ear than they actually are.

But as FlyingCamera says...

flavio81 · Dec 10, 2014

I think this was not a good CLA.

I have many cameras with central (leaf) shutters and the 1 sec setting comes very close to 1sec after the CLA. 50% error is too much. Unless it's a 1930s or 1940s Rolleiflex.

The idea is that if the clockwork mechanism has been cleaned thoroughly and lubricated (where applicable), it should already approach correct speed. Camera techs, correct me if i'm wrong.

shutterfinger · Dec 10, 2014

http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm 20% for speeds 1/100 and slower, 30% for speeds 1/125 and faster.
Compur shutter tolerance in the 1950's and 1960's is 15% for speeds 1/100 and slower, 20% for speeds 1/125 and faster.
Most shutters speeds are based on the 1 second setting, Compur shutters adjust at 1 second and 1/15 or 1/25 with a few having an adjustment for 1/500.
1/3 stop exposure difference can be just detected in a straight up paper black exposure wet print, 1 stop exposure difference in a scanned negative is easily corrected in post processing software but may not have as much adjustment latitude as a perfect exposure. Slide film is a different story, exposure should be within 1/3 stop of perfect.
Shutter speed testers that work on your computer or smart phone are easy to build and have been discussed, described, and exact instructions on how to make and use have been posted on many photo discussion forms such as this one.
Sounds like the service person only freshened the lubrication and did not do a complete disassembly, clean, reassemble service. A high wear shutter should come back a little faster.
As long as it is consistent and you are willing to live with it then the time error can be compensated for.

Sirius Glass · Dec 10, 2014

shutterfinger said:
http://www.flutotscamerarepair.com/Shutterspeed.htm 20% for speeds 1/100 and slower, 30% for speeds 1/125 and faster.
Compur shutter tolerance in the 1950's and 1960's is 15% for speeds 1/100 and slower, 20% for speeds 1/125 and faster.
Most shutters speeds are based on the 1 second setting, Compur shutters adjust at 1 second and 1/15 or 1/25 with a few having an adjustment for 1/500.
1/3 stop exposure difference can be just detected in a straight up paper black exposure wet print, 1 stop exposure difference in a scanned negative is easily corrected in post processing software but may not have as much adjustment latitude as a perfect exposure. Slide film is a different story, exposure should be within 1/3 stop of perfect.
Shutter speed testers that work on your computer or smart phone are easy to build and have been discussed, described, and exact instructions on how to make and use have been posted on many photo discussion forms such as this one.
Sounds like the service person only freshened the lubrication and did not do a complete disassembly, clean, reassemble service. A high wear shutter should come back a little faster.
As long as it is consistent and you are willing to live with it then the time error can be compensated for.

They are my got to lens and shutter repair place. Work the wait!

gone · Dec 10, 2014

What I would do is buy an inexpensive shutter tester off ebay for about $30 shipped (there's a guy in the Ukraine I think that sells them) and from then on you would know exactly what your speeds are running.

Sirius Glass · Dec 10, 2014

momus said:
What I would do is buy an inexpensive shutter tester off ebay for about $30 shipped (there's a guy in the Ukraine I think that sells them) and from then on you would know exactly what your speeds are running.

That would measure metric seconds instead of US Standard Seconds or Imperial Seconds!

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 10, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
That would measure metric seconds instead of US Standard Seconds or Imperial Seconds!

But would it be measuring in the old Slavonic Orthodox seconds or Soviet seconds?

Richard S. (rich815) · Dec 10, 2014

Who did the work?

flavio81 · Dec 11, 2014

TheFlyingCamera said:
But would it be measuring in the old Slavonic Orthodox seconds or Soviet seconds?

In Soviet russia, camera shutter tests YOU!

pentaxpete · Dec 11, 2014

A slightly longer 1 second would accommodate for 'Reciprocity Failure' of the film which causes under-exposure from 1 second longer if you do not allow for it !

E. von Hoegh · Dec 11, 2014

flavio81 said:
I think this was not a good CLA.

I have many cameras with central (leaf) shutters and the 1 sec setting comes very close to 1sec after the CLA. 50% error is too much. Unless it's a 1930s or 1940s Rolleiflex.
The idea is that if the clockwork mechanism has been cleaned thoroughly and lubricated (where applicable), it should already approach correct speed. Camera techs, correct me if i'm wrong.

I have a prewar Standard, the shutter is as accurate as any other leaf shutter I have - and this camera was dunked in water, dried out with rubbing alcohol and a hairdryer, and left on a shelf for years before I got it.

Søren · Dec 16, 2014

First of all thank you all for your helpful responses. I measured the exposure times with an iPhone app and it appears that all times
are 2/3 stop too slow. As shutterfingers suspects the technician might have only renewed the lubrication, probably not even did
a proper adjustment.
Since the camera is in such nice condition I really don't want to compromise on it and will send it to a former Franke & Heidecke
employee who now runs a service business here in Germany. I feel I will sleep much nicer if I know that the camera really has been
CLA'd properly and will work the next couple of years.

BrianShaw · Dec 16, 2014

Søren said:
... I feel I will sleep much nicer if I know that the camera really has been
CLA'd properly and will work the next couple of years.

Having done exactly that quite a bit earlier in my life (first MF camera was a Rollei TLR that was in nearly-unused condition but with sticky shutter)... yes you will sleep better and have a much better photographic experience!

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2014

Søren said:
First of all thank you all for your helpful responses. I measured the exposure times with an iPhone app and it appears that all times
are 2/3 stop too slow. As shutterfingers suspects the technician might have only renewed the lubrication, probably not even did
a proper adjustment.
Since the camera is in such nice condition I really don't want to compromise on it and will send it to a former Franke & Heidecke
employee who now runs a service business here in Germany. I feel I will sleep much nicer if I know that the camera really has been
CLA'd properly and will work the next couple of years.

Our advice is worth what you pay for it!

E. von Hoegh · Dec 16, 2014

BrianShaw said:
Having done exactly that quite a bit earlier in my life (first MF camera was a Rollei TLR that was in nearly-unused condition but with sticky shutter)... yes you will sleep better and have a much better photographic experience!

I concur.
Also, with modern synthetic lubricants it will more likely be good for the next couple of decades.

E. von Hoegh · Dec 16, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Our advice is worth what you pay for it!

Nonsense. It's worth infinitely more than that...

Sirius Glass · Dec 16, 2014

Ok
Our advice is worth more than it costs you. [If you do not add in the cost of your migration from 35mm to MF to LF to ULF.]

RalphLambrecht · Dec 17, 2014

Søren said:
Dear APUG members,

I inherited a wonderful Rolleiflex from my father and two weeks I finally gave it to be CLA'd since the low speeds were running very slow (at 1sec it took the shutter around 10sec to close).
However, now I got it back and at 1sec it is still a bit slow. I would estimate that at '1sec'-setting the shutter opens maybe 1.5 seconds or even a bit more, definitely noticeably longer compared to my other cameras.
A friend of mine said that this might still be tolerable, because you only can adjust the speeds at around 1/125 to 1/30. Is this true?
Say the camera works fine in general and I don't get noticeably over or underexposed images at the speeds on usually shoot at, is this totally fine or should complain to the technician? I just would like to hear a third opinion before I complain about it for no reason.
Thanks in advance & best regards
Soeren

If I remember correctly, the ISO tolerances for shutter speeds are surprisingly wide+/- 1/2 stop and more. I'd measure them, make a note of it and live with it.for the future, take that camera out 2-3 times a year at least and work all speeds.cameras don't hybernate well.they need to move.if they rest, they rust.

Søren · Mar 5, 2015

I think I should write an update on this issue. Unfortunately I could not send the camera in, because my other medium format camera was in service as well. Anyway. By now I had the Rolleiflex CLA'd by Werner Bruer(http://www.classic-fototechnik.de), who is a former employee of Franke&Heidecke so he knows his craft. He cleaned and adjusted the shutter as well as the focus unit. He even adjusted the light meter and did some minor cleaning work. The shutter speeds are now spot on and the knob for selecting the speeds feels way smoother now(I now feel that each setting lock into place, which wasn't the case before). Basically the camera feels like new now. All in all I can highly recommend Werner Bruer! The price was very, very good and he's very fast. I had several lenses & cameras CLA's now and I have to say that the service of Mr. Bruer was by far the best I experienced so far.

Sirius Glass · Mar 5, 2015

Thank you for the feedback.

Rolleiflex slow speeds & tolerance

Søren

TheFlyingCamera

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snapguy

Sirius Glass

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shutterfinger

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gone

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E. von Hoegh

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RalphLambrecht

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Rolleiflex slow speeds & tolerance

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