Rolleiflex Rusted Film Guides - How to Repair

TriXfan · Dec 7, 2020

My newly acquired Rolleiflex has large rust spots on the Film Guides -
Is it fixable and how much would it cost ?
If you have had this problem and successfully resolved it, please advise.

Of course it has all the other usual problems like no slow speeds (shutter blades stay open), stiff focus and aperture controls.
Much Thanks,
TriXfan

Kino · Dec 7, 2020

If the rails are not deeply pitted, you can use a metal polish like "Flitz" to restore the surface.

https://www.flitz.com/

ic-racer · Dec 7, 2020

Reads like it needs some work. Are you doing the work yourself or sending it out?

shutterfinger · Dec 7, 2020

Red medal polishing scotch brite and some elbow grease.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/Canopus-Scot...sprefix=metal+polishing+scotch,aps,245&sr=8-2

TriXfan · Dec 7, 2020

Thanks for your replies -
Most important to me that I don't change the lens to film plane distance.
I have checked out different methods/solvents on the net, but no matter what I could do myself, I can't guarantee that it won't mess up film plane distance + parallelism.
My assumption here is that the rust must be removed, or the film won't advance properly and predictably.
I will be checking with some repair people asap to see what they can do - a proper job might involve replacing the film rails completely ($$$ ??)
Thanks

shutterfinger · Dec 7, 2020

120 film is 4.5 mil thick for Kodak and Ilford fims, 3.5 mil thick for Fuji.
Thats .0045 and .0035 inch.
Anything less than half of the film thickness will not be noticible on negatives exposed wide open.
Half of .0035 is .00175. If you have to remove that much material to get rid of the rust then you need new rails.
https://www.amazon.com/Mothers-05101-Mag-Aluminum-Polish/dp/B0009H519Y
Works on cameras too!

summicron1 · Dec 7, 2020

shutterfinger said:
120 film is 4.5 mil thick for Kodak and Ilford fims, 3.5 mil thick for Fuji.
Thats .0045 and .0035 inch.
Anything less than half of the film thickness will not be noticible on negatives exposed wide open.
Half of .0035 is .00175. If you have to remove that much material to get rid of the rust then you need new rails.
https://www.amazon.com/Mothers-05101-Mag-Aluminum-Polish/dp/B0009H519Y
Works on cameras too!

um--the film is pressed against the rails by the pressure plate, so the thickness of the film does not matter -- it is the surface of the film-to-lens distance that counts.

Unless he takes a grinder to those things I don't see a problem -- a little smoothing so the film slides along won't change the distance any measurable amount. They don't need to be mirrors, just smooth. A bit of pitting would not matter because the pits, by definition, are below the level of the surface on which the film rides.

TriXfan · Dec 7, 2020

These are things I never thought of - your replies give me hope.
My major concern is just that I, or some repairperson, don't make things worse !
Thanks,
TriXfan

shutterfinger · Dec 7, 2020

In large format the tolerance of the film surface to the edge of the holder is ±.007 inch. Sheet film is .o007 inch thick.
Therefore you can be off the thickness of the film either side of the desired depth. Medium format should have a similar tolerance. When you tear down some MF cameras there is a shim or two between the shutter and the mount plate to put the lens at the proper distance. Standard shims are .005 inch and .010 inch. Shim stock is available from many sources and a desired thickness shim can be made and installed in the camera.
Standard rust will remove .00001 to .00002 to smooth the rail with polish removing the rest. Post a picture of the rust even if you have to use that shirt pocket thing with a camera in it.

Dan Daniel · Dec 8, 2020

Rollei's tolerance for shutter/lens to film plane alignment is +/- .05mm, or +/- .002 inch about.

The film may be riding on the rail but the imaging area is not. So this is almost always of no significance. Other than it it points to the camera being in a moist environment.

Take a fine sharpening stone and lap the surface. A little oil on the stone and polish top to bottom for a bit. Before lapping, take a Sharpie and color the metal surface. As you rub, the sharpie ink will be slowly rubbed down and give you a check. Small low spots are not a concern.

AgX · Dec 8, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Rollei's tolerance for shutter/lens to film plane alignment is +/- .05mm, or +/- .002 inch about.
The film may be riding on the rail but the imaging area is not. So this is almost always of no significance.

The OP hinted at the heightened friction due to the rusty guides.

Dan Daniel · Dec 8, 2020

AgX said:
The OP hinted at the heightened friction due to the rusty guides.

He hinted at a concern about friction, not actual friction directly attributable to the rusted rails.

Remember, film is not pushed against the rails. The film rides in a small gap between the rails and the pressure plate.

Odds are that the rollers are not moving smoothly. this is a far more typical cause of friction. And since the whole camera appears to be stiff and binding, until the wind system in toto is smoothed out, hard to say where any dragging may be coming from.

AgX · Dec 8, 2020

In general modern cameras have 2 kind of rails:
-) lateral rails that, guide the film transversally over the window. The pressure plate rests on these.
-) frontal rails, that form the frontal arrest for the film, with the pressure plate being the rear arrest.

I am bit clueless, having no Rolleiflex at hand, what steel rails the OP referring is referring to.

shutterfinger · Dec 8, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Rollei's tolerance for shutter/lens to film plane alignment is +/- .05mm, or +/- .002 inch about.

That's roughly half the film thickness.
Being Rolleiflex/Rolleicord lens are mounted on a metal plate (lens carrier) attached to the focus arms one can put an additional shim between the plate and arms to achieve perfect lens to film plane distance.

BrianShaw · Dec 8, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
Take a fine sharpening stone and lap the surface.

Alternatively... diamond lapping film. Many tool shops (real and online) have it in various grades that are faster and finer than most stones.

https://www.google.com/search?clien...QQxMS4zmAEAoAEBsAEP&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp

Kino · Dec 8, 2020

You can probably find all you need right here:
https://qtena.com/b-abrasives-brbr-c-2163.html

I'm always a sucker for quality tools...

UnderwoodPhoto · Dec 9, 2020

Easy way to remove rust WITHOUT abrasive. Muriatic Acid on a Q-Tip and lightly touch the surface. Use common sense safety procedures. The rust will disolve instantly. Neutralize with water/baking soda mix (no critical measure) and dry. Protect the now clean surface with a dab of candle wax rubbed into the metal.

AgX · Dec 9, 2020

At places where do I not can or do not want to work abrasive I typicaly treat rust with a rust-converter solution.

UnderwoodPhoto · Dec 9, 2020

Rust converter solutions require long working times and leave a built up coating like primer paint that may interfere with moving parts. The main ingredient of these is phosphoric or hydrochloric (muriatic) acid in a buffered gell. Using the acid directly offers instant results.

AgX · Dec 9, 2020

The built-up is in the micron range, moreover it is not on top, but in there where once the steel was. (However there are rust converters integrated into water-based varnishes, maybe you refer to these.)
But I admit even my approach is not the perfect solution, but the best were abrasion is not appliable.

BrianShaw · Dec 9, 2020

Are we sure the camera body and film rails are steel?

AgX · Dec 9, 2020

I already raised this question in post #13, without reply. So far I thought I was just slow on the uptake.

BrianShaw · Dec 9, 2020

I have a Rolleicord Vb and never got the impression that it was steel. Now it is retired and packed far enough away the I’m not likely to dig it out and check with a magnet.
Nor did I ever get the impression that the film guide rails were replaceable. The rollers, sure... but the film guide rails seem part of the body casting.

shutterfinger · Dec 9, 2020

My Rolleiflex Automat, Rolleicord II, Rolleicord V film guides (rails) are not steel, the image box is. The guides are likely nickel plated brass and a press fit into the casting.

jvo · Dec 10, 2020

Dan Daniel said:
He hinted at a concern about friction, not actual friction directly attributable to the rusted rails.

Remember, film is not pushed against the rails. The film rides in a small gap between the rails and the pressure plate.

Odds are that the rollers are not moving smoothly. this is a far more typical cause of friction. And since the whole camera appears to be stiff and binding, until the wind system in toto is smoothed out, hard to say where any dragging may be coming from.

re. rolleiflex, dan is the "go to" guy! he knows what he's talking about!

Rolleiflex Rusted Film Guides - How to Repair

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