Rolleiflex Automat K4/50: Must fire shutter twice before film advances

[Joe Galloy]

I picked up a cosmetically ugly Automat with a taking lens in really good shape for peanuts; I've run a roll through it and the negs are sharp. I tested the shutter speeds and both slow and fast ranges average about 2/3 stop slow, so I expose accordingly. (I know that it needs a CLA.) I'm having a problem with winding, and with the first roll I thought I'd made a mistake loading. With the second roll, it's now a pattern. I wind the paper backing under the roller, over the film plane, and onto the take up spool. I advance a few turns (until the arrows show up on the film backing), close the back, and keep winding until "1" appears in the window. To initially cock the shutter, I have to turn the winder backwards roughly two times before it stops. I can then fire the shutter. However, the film lever will not advance, nor will the shutter fire again (I wouldn't expect it to). The only way to go is back. I then turn the crank backwards again, usually once, maybe twice, again cocking the shutter. I then put the lens cap on to avoid double exposure, and fire the shutter again. Then I can finally advance the film to "2" and then I turn the crank back until it stops. Essentially, I have to cock and fire the shutter twice every time for each frame. Am I doing something wrong with loading/winding, or is it something wrong with the transport or shutter? Thanks!

 

[jtk]

Guess that's what "Automat" means

 

[choiliefan]

Cool...

 

[Saganich]

Sounds like something wrong with transport/shutter. It should cock the shutter with a minor backward jog after advancing. Usually this is done when putting the lever back in its place after advancing. If you leave the lever out a backwards jog is necessary to cock the shutter. What you described is not correct.

 

[btaylor]

I believe this Rollei has the rollers that detect the film when it rolls by, so you would continue to wind clockwise until the lever stops, that should coincide with the number 1. I don't know what would happen if you stopped winding before the crank stopped, I've never tried. All film advance should be winding until the crank stops. Obviously your double fire shutter actuation isn't normal. I would check out http://butkus.org/chinon/rollei/rolleiflex_automat/rolleiflex_automat.htm

 

[btaylor]

If it takes sharp pics, it would probably be worth sending it in for a CLA. Rollei TLR's are my favorite cameras to use.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Once you wind the film and it stops as tone, then wind the lever backwards to the rest position, the lever should simply not move until the shutter is fired. You say that it will go backwards but not forward? I think that your model has a double exposure setting- maybe this is stuck or sticking. It is the partially serrated ring around the base of the wind lever with an arrow.

Another possibility is that the shutter release has gone of adjustment with the wind release. When you press in the shutter release you are actually engaging two different mechanical systems with the shutter button. One is for the firing of the shutter, the other is for the release of the winding system. The timing of these two things is adjustable, and it should be that releasing the shutter and releasing the wind mechanism happen at the same point in the shutter release travel. But it is possible for this to get out of whack. Sometimes this can mean simply being certain to press the shutter release to the bottom, even if the shutter fires before this point. Test this out. You need to open the side panel to make the adjustment.

 

[Joe Galloy]

Thanks to everyone who responded! Yes, it seems abnormal. Just did a few more shots, and a couple of times I could advance after firing, the other times, I had to turn the crank back to fire the shutter again before it would allow me to wind to the next frame. It doesn't have a double exposure wheel, so I'll check out what Dan suggested. This may be why it works sometimes, but not others. Valuable info. Thanks!

 

[Dan Daniel]

There needs to be film in the camera to test the timing of the shutter release and the wind release.

When you let go of the shutter release and let it come back up, this locks the shutter button out of going down again, so you can't simply re-push to release the wind mechanism.

The wind release is at about 3 o'clock on the wind side of the camera, just about at the outer edge of the raised section. If you push the shutter release slowly (film in camera!), very slowly, do one shot where you let go as soon as the shutter fires. See what happens. Then do another where, after the shutter fires, keep pushing slowly. You might hear the wind release activate.

Of course, you shouldn't be able to turn the crank back as you describe. So good chance your problem is deeper.

 

[Joe Galloy]

Cool, great info, Dan, and it makes sense to me. I'll give it a try tomorrow as I finish off the roll that's in there.

 

[mike c]

I had a similar problem with my Rollflex, would load the film passing the leader under the roller then to the take up spool, I would advance the film till the arrows aligned with an imaginary mark (which really was not there) closed the back and wound too #1 frame. The problem was that there is no alignment marks, Your are suppose to tread the film under the roller and to the take up spool and advance the film a little for the leader to stay on the spool and then close the back and advance the crank too frame #1. The roller that the film is threaded under measures the leader thickness , when the leader and the film with the tape that holds the film goes thru the thickness of the three is greater and trips the counter somehow. The model I have is an E2 or something like that, I do not know if this works the same as mine. My Rolliecord has just a dot to line up with the film backing arrows, which I like better.

 

[btaylor]

Mike C, as you said, the roller determines the start of the film because there are no alignment marks. That was a feature that was promoted on the Automat.