Rolleicord with 1/250th shutter?

f/Alex · Apr 8, 2024

Hello Internet;

I have a rolleicord that I have recently come into possession of, and, though a lot of painful work, have been able to CLA and tune... part of the timings. Haven't had the time or equipment to work on the high speed timings, but low speeds run fine, I've been too traumatized by the assholes who work camera repair stores to go anywhere like that again. The question and challenge here comes in the form of the rolleicord I have, resembling a rolleicord 3 or 2e (not 100% sure yet?) in almost every way except it's shutter, which has a fastest speed of 1/250th of a second. The dial when disassembled is labeled for 1/500th of a second, yet when assembled it cannot turn far enough.

It does turn farther than 1/250th of a second, maybe someone installed a 1/300th of a second shutter in a 1/500th rolleicord as a repair? I'm not sure. Also the shutter doesn't match any documentation I've found for the 500th second compur rapid used by most rolleicord III? I've actually been unable to find any documentation on it at all.

ic-racer · Apr 8, 2024

Yes, the spring for 500 can be pretty stiff. Not only the cocking lever, but the selection lever too.

Dan Daniel · Apr 8, 2024

f/Alex said:
It does turn farther than 1/250th of a second, maybe someone installed a 1/300th of a second shutter in a 1/500th rolleicord as a repair?

Not sure what this means, but there is a little room past 1/250 before the booster spring is engaged and extra force is needed.

It's also possible to install the booster spring in such a way that you can't cock the shutter at 1/500, and if you do find a way- lots of force- it won't fire.

bernard_L · Apr 8, 2024

Your 400-box-speed film will survive one stop overexposure unharmed; even healthily.
Your old shutter may not find the compression of the booster spring such a pleasant experience.

f/Alex · Apr 8, 2024

Your old shutter may not find the compression of the booster spring such a pleasant experience.

I'm not sure what you mean with regards to this, I know how to service cameras, I Ain't about to shove an unoiled corroded spring to it's maximum setting.

Yes, the spring for 500 can be pretty stiff. Not only the cocking lever, but the selection lever too.

even when disassembled the selector can't turn past what's a little past 1/250th of a second on the shutter.

Is there a possibility someone put a 1/300th of a second shutter in a 1/500th second casing?

JPD · Apr 10, 2024

f/Alex said:
the rolleicord I have, resembling a rolleicord 3 or 2e (not 100% sure yet?) in almost every way except it's shutter, which has a fastest speed of 1/250th of a second.

Post photos of the camera for identification. A quick way to tell them apart: The Rolleicord II has a red window on the bottom, and the III does not.

dxqcanada · Apr 10, 2024

I had a Compur-Rapid shutter once that could not be set to 1/500s ... when I took it apart I saw that someone had not placed the spring in the correct position, so the speed cam just ran into the wrong side of it.

Here is an image of a shutter (from a Rolleicord I had) with the spring in the right position ... the high speed spring is at 4 o'clock, and would be pushed by the protrusion on the cam to the left to load it up.

eli griggs · Apr 10, 2024

Be certain, I mean 100% sure you know how the shutter is set to the highest speed setting, cocked before shutter speed selection or only cocked after the selection is made.

That fast spring looks thick, is that mechanism lubed and in contact in the correct position for loading film and shooting?

jwd722 · Apr 10, 2024

I have noticed that on my 'Cords it is easier (and been suggested) to set 1/500th before cocking the shutter due to the spring tension.

jwd722 · Apr 10, 2024

eli griggs · Apr 11, 2024

jwd722 said:
View attachment 367967

Cheers!

We all should make a pdf of this instruction and past it at the top of both medium format and repairs forums, IMO.

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

I had a Compur-Rapid shutter once that could not be set to 1/500s ... when I took it apart I saw that someone had not placed the spring in the correct position, so the speed cam just ran into the wrong side of it.

Turns out this was it.

But now I've encountered *Another* issue...

My skimping out on cleaning the shutter blades ended up leaving me with a frozen shutter, so back apart it goes, cleaned the blades, etc, etc, everything operates great, actually bothered to buy latex gloves to avoid getting me fingy oils over everything. Now the issue is this: had taken the timing system out to clean and lubricate it, since it was sticking randomly at only one speed and that seemed weird asf, and whilst releasing it, to get a better look at the gears and see if there was anything stuck in it, the spring totally unwound itself, image attached below. Am I effed here? should I order a for parts rollei online and grab the timer out of that one? is it worth that or should I buy a working one off ebay, there only like 75-100 more than for parts rolleis it seems.

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

update: what does this spring even do? I've struggled to find any repair documentation for a shutter that matches the one I have, it appears to be a similar shutter to the one @dxqcanada posted, although it's lacking any numerical markings on the speed selector. Regardless, the shutter appears to still fire with the coil spring removed. is this coil spring related to the accuracy of the high speed shutter?

Dan Daniel · Apr 19, 2024

Is that spring actually disconnected at both ends? I wonder if it simply unwound far enough to be comepletely loose, flipped outside of the mechanism, and took on a new home. On the back of the case is a pin with a slot in the middle and one end of the spring sits in there when properly assembled. See what happens if you roll the brass gear on the right end, if the spring uncoils, and if it can be guided back under the top plate?

OK, remember, I am working off of two photos that don't really show what is needed.

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

Is that spring actually disconnected at both ends?

Yes, it was tangled in all the gears, I figured it'd be best to fully remove it before I attempt to put it back on.

I think it may have already been disconnected, because my high speed shutter is giving near identical results to what it did before, 100th of a second = ~1/25-1/30th, 250th of a second = ~1/60th-1/80th

I think someone before me tried to work on the shutter and somehow did an even worse job than me.

See what happens if you roll the brass gear on the right end, if the spring uncoils, and if it can be guided back under the top plate?

it was undone on both sides, over the top of the mechanism. I'm not sure how or why, but I'm starting to think, that maybe, for once, it wasn't my fault.

To be honest, I may try and get the 500th second timer working, and continue on using it in the current state. my low speed timings are good enough for everything, and I do a lot of long exposure work anyways.

considered sending it off to the guy in germany who runs the magicflex website, but to be honest, I don't have a thousand euros, I don't even have a few hundred that nippon in NYC would likely charge me, which is why i'm doin this myself.

Dan Daniel · Apr 19, 2024

Send just the shutter to Carol Flutot and get it rebuilt right.

F L U T O T ' S Camera Repair

OAPOli · Apr 19, 2024

@Mamiya_Repair has some Compur spare parts. Maybe he has that specific escapement available.

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

Send just the shutter to Carol Flutot and get it rebuilt right.

Would love to, I'm broke. Srsly. University student, just moved into a new apartment, don't have the money for that on top of film and paper right now. those guys r charging at least $160. If i'd take it anywhere it'd be Nippon in NYC since they're local regardless and I wouldn't have to deal with shipping.

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

the max i'd be willing/able to spend on the camera right now is likely $50, and I don't know anyone who'll do a CLA for $50. honestly I don't know many people who'll do a CLA without ripping out off, I had one of my other cameras CLA'd by some guys in hells kitchen and they ripped the the frick off.

dxqcanada · Apr 19, 2024

Did you take the escapement apart or did the spring wind out when the retard lever pulled outward?

f/Alex · Apr 19, 2024

Did you take the escapement apart or did the spring wind out when the retard lever pulled outward?

I don't even know how to take the escapement apart. It just kinda flew out when I released the lever.

dxqcanada · Apr 19, 2024

You should be able to pull the spring and wind it back ... possibly.

BrianShaw · Apr 19, 2024

See the “note”; this report isn’t very hopeful about putting Humpty back together again

Camera Collecting and Restoration

f/Alex · Apr 20, 2024

this report isn’t very hopeful about putting Humpty back together again

I think it's referencing the other spring? I'm still pretty confused as to the function of the coil spring that popped out on mine, since all my timings are identical to previous, it's either been unhooked since I came into possession of this camera (I have no clue about its history), or the spring does nothing

eli griggs · Apr 20, 2024

dxqcanada said:
You should be able to pull the spring and wind it back ... possibly.

I agree, as my old style Hasselblad 50mm C T* shutter escapement has a small gear with a tiny ribbon spring that when the escapement exploded because I removed one screw too many, became partially unwound.

One afternoon, just going over the bits to reassemble it, I practiced rewinding the, bronze, I think, spring and found that it can be done, but be careful, that ribbon o metal is very thin and allowing it to unroll completely can cause the thing to "knife jack" somewhat, back on irs self, as mine did, near the winding gear connection.

If the cash was plentiful, for both of us, I'd suggest you just buy a working shutter escapement that simply installs as a plain, single unit.

I've not yet fixed my 50mm CT* lens because I bought an older 150mm chrome lens out of Japan and it turns out the seller sent, to my eyes, a really nice lens, almost as nice, in my opinion, as my clean CF T*, in that focal length and I'm still trying to find a disabled lens of the 50mm shutter type that can be practiced on, and cleaned up, swapping out the two shutter escapement.

I really hate the idea of putting that spare 150 under the driver, as it seems perfect in my esteem.

Perhaps you have some kit or other collectable items to sell or trade for a correct escapement ready to be installed, which you've forgotten about?

Good luck, just keep at it and nevermind taking it apart and reassembling several times, thats how I learned to tune a four barrel carb on a old car I had, repeating everything time and time again.

One last thing, others might scoff at this, but practice disassembling and reassembling and installing that and other groups, by moving quite slowly in and out of every step, just so you begin to develop some 'Muscle Memory, and can one day do it quicker but very accurately.

Cheers

Rolleicord with 1/250th shutter?

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