Rolleicord VB type2 negative frame spacing help

[matthew001]

I've shot several rolls with my rollei since i got it a week or two ago. Each roll the spacing of the frames seems random. Sometimes they're really close, sometimes further apart(a little less than a quarter inch). I always fit 12 frames on a single 120 roll. I was just wondering if this was a precursor to a serious problem. I've only had problems when the frame is so close its hard to cut accurately.

 

[summicron1]

could be. spacing on this is by a tooth wheel that engages the film spool as it rolls up -- it engages gears inside and if it is slipping anywhere it would throw the spacing off. Had it serviced in the last decade? Might be time. Any 40-plus year old machine will benefit by a good go-through.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Yep, dirt and such. Best is to get it cleaned, meaning opening up the side to clean and re-lube the levers and such that make the spacing happen.

In the meantime, you could take a scrap roll of film, or backing paper only, and keep running it through the camera while you watch a TV show or such. See if some repeated action will redistrubute old grease, etc. There are other tricks to attempt involving dripping Naphtha into a few palces, but it's the sort of thing that is probably of the, 'if you don't know I shouldn't tell you' type. And it is hack and prone to cause more problems than it solves.

Going inside a Rolleicord is not difficult if that kind of activity comes easily to you.

 

[dehk]

You probably only need an empty spool to do that if its "take up driven"

 

[Alex Muir]

I bought a Vb Type 1 last year and have the same issue. On one roll I had slight overlap, but that has not been repeated. I have seen instructions which advise you to keep a thumb on the film as you load it and wind on to the point where you close the camera. This is to keep the film tight in the early stages. It seems to help. It may also help to try to turn the film wind knob smoothly and evenly between frames. I am reluctant to go for a repair yet as it could be expensive. The quality available with this camera makes it worth persevering. The negatives are superb.

 

[matthew001]

I bought a Vb Type 1 last year and have the same issue. On one roll I had slight overlap, but that has not been repeated. I have seen instructions which advise you to keep a thumb on the film as you load it and wind on to the point where you close the camera. This is to keep the film tight in the early stages. It seems to help. It may also help to try to turn the film wind knob smoothly and evenly between frames. I am reluctant to go for a repair yet as it could be expensive. The quality available with this camera makes it worth persevering. The negatives are superb.

Yea - I've been doing this. Putting my thumb on the roll as i wind. I haven't had any overlap, just odd spacing. I'll deffinately go for a CLA if it becomes a problem. I've had nothing short of superb quality out of this little camera.

 

[summicron1]

when just working the camera to exercise the mechanism the takeup spool should have paper on it, so use a full roll. an empty spool slips.

 

[George Collier]

I have a 3.5F and a 3.5T, both have been CLA'd by Krimar (including the film advance) and both have inconsistent spacing between the images, though the 3.5F is better, and never an overlap with either. I also hold back on the supply roll when loading. I've just accepted it - good engineering, but old technology.

 

[R.Gould]

I have a Rolleicord Va2, serviced, and get uneven spacing, no overlaps, just put it down to one of those things, I also get uneven frame spacing with my Rolleiflex, also serviced, never worried about, heck, I get uneven spacing on my Bronica ETR, I just put it down to 120 film, never been a problem,
Richard

 

[laser]

Please consider that film advance on 120 cameras is much different than on 35mm cameras. In 35mm the sprockets are engaged and after so many perfs pass the film advance stops. Very easy to movement and measurement to replicate. In Rollei's the film advance metering is done by detecting the take up diameter increase not the amount of film that passes the film gate. The required advance, based on the roll diameter increase is approximated by the camera's mechanism. As long as there is no image overlap and the 12 exposures all fit on the 32.5-inches of film the camera's operation should be considered fully satisfactory. Even spacing is not a requirement that even new cameras could provide.

makingkodakfilm.com

 

[R.Gould]

The only 120 cameras I have used in which I get even spacing are red window where you depend on the numbers on the backing paper, wind those on very carefully and the spacing can be very good, but with any form of auto wind it can't be done, the stop depends on the thickness of the film, so it is bound to vary, but as long as you get 8/12/15 or 16 clear frames, depending on format then don't worry, everything is as it should be.
Richard

 

[George Collier]

Re Laser's comment - I never knew this, although I guess it makes some sense. But is that the only way the the camera can meter the film advanced? How about a geared ratio of "advanced distance" related to the aperture opening size (the window at the film plane) plus some for space? Too much inconsistency due to whether the roll is tightly or loosely wound? Would be interesting to hear the original Rollei engineers' discussion on this. They would likely opt for a calculable number, even if subject to a steep variation curve.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Re Laser's comment - I never knew this, although I guess it makes some sense. But is that the only way the the camera can meter the film advanced? How about a geared ratio of "advanced distance" related to the aperture opening size (the window at the film plane) plus some for space? Too much inconsistency due to whether the roll is tightly or loosely wound? Would be interesting to hear the original Rollei engineers' discussion on this. They would likely opt for a calculable number, even if subject to a steep variation curve.

Laser is not correct in how they calculate film travel. If you look at the take-up area, you will see a fine-toothed gear on the left end of a rod. On the right end of that rod, on the other side of the wall, is a smaller gear. This gear in turn rotates yet another gear (larger) which in turn rotates a disk with slots in it. These slots are evenly spaced, and a lever will drop into the slot to stop the forward winding.

So the 'information' imparted to the internal mechanism is based on the linear travel of the film. That first thin gear in the take-up area is spring-loaded. Push it and you will see- as the film spook diameter increases, the gear moves, but the 'information' it is transmitting remains based on the linear distance the film travels. No need for any complex curves or logarithms or algorithms, no need to worry about film thickness, etc. That is how they solved the issue: linear film motion causes specific, constant gear motion.

So on a Rolleicord, when you rotate the wind knob, you will be directly turning the film spool itself. this, in turn, rotates the thin gear on the left side > internal gear> internal gear > slotted disk. The only difference for a Rolleiflex is that the crank handle turns a gear which truns naother gear which finally turns the gear that is the film spool drive.

 

[Dan Daniel]

I'll add links to a Rolleiflex T in pieces put on flickr by someone (not me). Although the T is different in many ways form both the ROlleicord and the Rolleiflex, the basic frame counting and winding system is the same concept. In this first photo, the two '1's point at a small gear to their left. This gear has a silver center. That is the other end of the rod that goes across the upper film chamber. So as the film moves the large gear on the left side of the film chamber, this small gear is rotated, which rotates the larger gear above it. When the back is closed, the center of that larger gear- small gear- engages the film counter dial to the right.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/sets/72157624987139266/with/5042303172/

The back of the film counter dial has another disk with notches, shown here.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29504544@N08/5046281161/in/set-72157624987139266

 

[ic-racer]

The only 120 cameras I have used in which I get even spacing are red window where you depend on the numbers on the backing paper, wind those on very carefully and the spacing can be very good, but with any form of auto wind it can't be done, the stop depends on the thickness of the film, so it is bound to vary, but as long as you get 8/12/15 or 16 clear frames, depending on format then don't worry, everything is as it should be.
Richard

Close, but actually it uses a wheel to measure the length of film passing by very similar to the way a 35mm camera measures the film. It adjusts film spacing based on a fixed rotation of the wheel, not the diameter of the spool. Do you have good spring tension on the wheel?