Rolleicord and fomapan -Latest disaster.

JammyB · Jul 21, 2014

I've just developed my first roll of fomapan 100 120 whoch I'd shot at the coast with a rolleicord lll.
it all seemed fine when I was using the camera but after development its apparent all the shots are overlapping.

I think I might know why. Perhaps someone can confirm.
So far Ive only used a couple of rolls of Tri-x 120 and when I load it I wind on until the arrows line up. On the Fomapan I didn't get any arrows I wound on until the word START appeared. I lined this up with the arrows and closed the back. I suspect now I should have wound on further untill some arrows appear. Are their any arrows on foma?

pdeeh · Jul 21, 2014

There are indeed arrows on Foma

Rick A · Jul 21, 2014

I don't think that would cause overlapping of images, only where the first image lands on the roll. I believe you may have another issue here, the camera not winding on properly between shots. It appears they become successively closer at each shot. It may be something simple like backing paper thickness, there were other threads about that problem in the past. If memory serves, the fix was adding a short bit of extra backing paper in the beginning, as to the length, I don't know.
Try loading a fresh roll and line the arrows to start, if that resolves the issue then disregard my post.

Colin Corneau · Jul 21, 2014

You didn't mention if you had this problem with the Tri-X you'd used earlier -- if so, then as Rick says you may have a mechanical problem with the camera's winding.

If not, then likely it is the particular film...maybe.

JammyB · Jul 21, 2014

Rick A said:
Try loading a fresh roll and line the arrows to start,

I will do just that.
It seems like it over-laps three or four and then advances properly for one, Then over-laps again.

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shutterfinger · Jul 21, 2014

How is the spacing on the TriX?
This is a common problem in Graphic Roll Film holders.
The causes are:
1. stripped wind key.
2. dirty wind gearing.
3. worn spacing/frame cam.
4. Film thickness.

Solutions are:
1. replace the wind key even if you have to make one from scratch.
2. Do a Clean and lube on the transport gear/wind mechanism.
3. Replace the cam or in the case of a window align the frame number at the same point for each frame or gradually advance it further across the window starting at the left edge.
4. Add .008 to .016 thickness to the take up roller or the equivalent between the take up spool and the film's paper leader. This extra thickness causes the film to have to move further across the film plane to position the film number in the correct position for that frame.

Fuji, Kodak, Ilford backing paper is .006 inch thick; Arista EDU Ultra (Foma rebadged?) backing paper is .004 inch thick. Fuji films are 3.5mil, .0035 inch thick. Ilford and Kodak films are 4.5 mil, .0045 inch thick. Arista EDU Ultra is 4 mil, .004thick. Fuji films will overlap frames in cameras Ilford and Kodak films will not. Film was thicker by 1 mil to 2 mil in the 1940's or 1950's than it is today.

Arista EDU Ultra alignment arrow is 3 5/8 inches from the top of the word Start.

Alex Muir · Jul 21, 2014

I read somewhere that different film brands use different sizes of spool. Presumably, the internal spindle is a different diameter, and this may cause spacing problems. I don't know if this is correct, or not. I have had a similar problem from time to time with a Rolleicord Vb. The annoying thing is that it can be fine for one film, then it messes up the next. I haven't yet found a definite cure.
Alex

removed account4 · Jul 21, 2014

can you just run the paper through without the film
and see if the spacing looks good from the back?
i sometimes do this with roll film holders to assure
the frames aren't squished together ...

VomitOnLino · Jul 22, 2014

I guess, as a first post I'm gonna go against the grain here and say you have not one, but two problems here.
I experienced the very same issue on a Rolleiflex 2.8F.

Firstly, yes the frame spacing is iffy. I guess something is either up with the film loading or the winding process. Film and backing paper thickness, as mentioned also plays a role.

But secondly, no the frames don't all overlap, the dark streaks that connect some frames are what happens when the shutter doesn't close again after opening. So then the film rolls through the camera while the shutter is open, causing these exposed streaks. I'm guessing oil or lubricant is causing your shutter blades to stick. Then when moving the lever back counterclockwise, you re-cock the shutter and force it closed. Again, I had the very same issue on an important shoot and it ruined a couple of rolls for me. This camera will need servicing, this is not Fomapan's (lone) fault.

Edit: When I get home from work I can show some samples of this issue.

Newt_on_Swings · Jul 22, 2014

A film thickness issue will cause all frames to overlap no? I have seen over lapping due to film thickness in my zeiss super ikonta where I have to put a layer or two of gaffers tape at the start to pad the roll to fix it. The only other time I've even random over lapping and spacing problems was when a Holga was used where the film tension got loose inside, after all it's held with foam.

VomitOnLino · Jul 22, 2014

Yeah, It would cause overlap for almost all frames, there's always a bit of wiggle room though. That said if it was a film thickness issue it should get more severe as it goes on, which it doesnt.
I've highlighted this fact in an edit of the OP's image. The separate frames are still clearly recognizable in the OP's image. You can also see that the areas of overlap contain no detail but just straight lines.

Your issue, is shutter drag, not film spacing.

R.Gould · Jul 23, 2014

You have a fault with the winding mechanism in the Rolleicord, I had the same problem with a Rolleicord Va2, sometimes film would wind perfectly sometimes overlapping frames, on FDoma and Ilford films, nothing to do with film thickness, Had it serviced by Newton and Ellis and spacing is fine, also, the Fomapan film has the start arrows, wind beyond the word start and you come to the arrows, line them up and away you go

JammyB · Jul 23, 2014

Thanks all for you help so far

I think it might be a combination of things. I ran another Foma roll through the camera and this time wound on to the arrows.
This time I have a good spacing between the shots.

Many of them were long exposures as I was using the test roll as an opportunity to test Foma's Reciprocity Failure at the same time. Which I think accounts for some of the exposed areas outside the frame towards the bottom. it's not the same issue as before anyway.
On the first roll there was detail between the shots. But there are shutter issues with this camera. I need to have another look at it.

My thought is perhaps by not rolling on to the arrows when I loaded the film I had only gripped the paper on the take-up spool and not the film and that perhaps the paper was slipping past the film when rolling on.

I'll try and get them both scanned tonight and see if that offers more clues.

baachitraka · Jul 23, 2014

CLA for transport and shutter.

JPD · Jul 23, 2014

I think it's just the arrows thing. When you missed the arrows the camera got the wrong cue when to start the counter. I'm not sure if the spacing should get worse the more you're into the roll, because the roller in the take-up chamber feels how far you're winding for each frame and also takes the thickness of the roll into account. Clumping of unevenly spaced frames might be normal if you miss the arrows.

To know if there's slippage, take a look at the backing paper and film to see of the "tooth-marks" from the roller is unevenly spaced. They should be, if there's slippage.

Film/paper thickness is a problem with Super Ikontas, because films/backing paper is thinner today, but in them the counter works in a different way. I have never had problems with the different modern films in a Rollei. Not even with the early Rolleiflex Standard or Rolleicord I/II models.

xya · Jul 23, 2014

yes the super ikontas may have a spacing problem with the first shots of a film, but it gets better towards the end of the film. there is an easy trick: when you open a fresh roll, tear it cautiously open at the beginnig of the part that normally should slide into the slit of the spool and don't get rid of the strip that holds the film roll together. it clings to the beginning of the backing paper. then feed this strip ito the slit and wind. the beginning of the backing paper will follow as they are attached. you now have just a bit more thickness on the spool. then proceed as normal. works for me like charm.

JammyB · Jul 24, 2014

VomitOnLino said:
I guess, as a first post I'm gonna go against the grain here and say you have not one, but two problems here.
I experienced the very same issue on a Rolleiflex 2.8F.

Firstly, yes the frame spacing is iffy. I guess something is either up with the film loading or the winding process. Film and backing paper thickness, as mentioned also plays a role.

But secondly, no the frames don't all overlap, the dark streaks that connect some frames are what happens when the shutter doesn't close again after opening. So then the film rolls through the camera while the shutter is open, causing these exposed streaks. I'm guessing oil or lubricant is causing your shutter blades to stick. Then when moving the lever back counterclockwise, you re-cock the shutter and force it closed. Again, I had the very same issue on an important shoot and it ruined a couple of rolls for me. This camera will need servicing, this is not Fomapan's (lone) fault.

Edit: When I get home from work I can show some samples of this issue.

I've had a good play with the shutter and I think there is a bit of sticking going on. I've got the shutter apart again and I think it's solved now. can moving the speed out of 1/500th while it's cocked jam the shutter? I think that may have been the problem.
I got one sharp shot out of the last roll. A 2 second exposure in bulb:

I hope I can get this thing working reliably this lens has a magical quality when it's working.

shutterfinger · Jul 24, 2014

http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/manuels_rep/obturateurs/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html shows shutter CN-1110-000 which is a Synchro Compur 00 for all but one Rolleiflex/Rolleicord cameras a few years newer than yours. The differences between a Synchro Compur and Compur Rapid is minor and or related to flash sync only. The difference between a Large Format and a TLR application is the mounting.
The early Compur Rapid have levers riveted or staked to the main setting ring, item 528 CN-1110-000 tafel 2. If yours has the levers fastened to the setting ring then it may jam if moved from 1/500 when set but if it does not have levers attached to it then it will not.

Too much oil or grease will act like glue and impair shutter operation. Extra fine powdered graphite and similar lubricants works well on the shutter and aperture blades pivots. Aperture and shutter blades must remain dry, free of oil or grease.

JammyB · Jul 25, 2014

Thanks SF.
I've ordered some graphite powder.

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Rolleicord and fomapan -Latest disaster.

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