Rollei Retro 80S - inaccurate start arrow placement on backing paper?

GLS · Sep 23, 2018

So, I have very little experience with this film, only having shot a grand total of two rolls of 120, one through my 501CM and another through my Pentax 6x7. However, they both had the same problem: namely that the last frame on the roll was cut off because the position of the first frame was too far into the roll (I would estimate 1 - 1.5" further in than normal). Neither camera exhibits this problem with any other film I have put through them, so I suspect the issue is with the film/backing paper alignment or an innacuracy in the position of the start arrow. Both rolls were from the same batch.

Has anyone else experienced something similar with RR80S, or can provide any insight? Thanks.

neilt3 · Sep 23, 2018

I've just finished my first roll of it in a Mamiya C330 , I'll be developing it at the end of the week along with the rest of the films I shot on my last two weeks holiday .
I'll let you know .

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2018

This is a new issue as far as I know. It seems strange that given the length of time this film has been around no-one else has mentioned this. That is not to say that there hasn't been a change to the way the backing paper is configured which will now manifest itself in more complaints but if this has crept under the Rollei radar unnoticed this is worrying.

I don't know how a film is loaded in a Hasselblad but in my P645N you simply line up a start line on the backing paper with a start point in the spindle. I presume the start line is the same for all cameras as rolls are not tailored to a specific camera so if it is inaccurate it will be so for all cameras, won't it?

Until I get more feedback from other users who have recently bought this film, I wouldn't risk buying this film. So can other users of Rollei Retro 80S give their experience, please?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Sep 23, 2018

Is there any chance that the OP is mistaking a different marker for the 120 start line?

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

Thanks for the replies.

There's no chance I used the wrong start marker; the arrow is very obvious and there are no other marks anywhere close to it.

However, I mispoke somewhat in the OP. Namely that with the Hasselblad the last frame wasn't actually cut off as with the Pentax, it was just extremely close to the end of the roll which necessitated the lab damaging it with the hanging clips. With the Pentax the last frame was actually incomplete by ~ 10-20%. The frame spacing on both rolls were fine however.

I remember with the Hasselblad it seemed to take more turns of the winding crank than usual before it stopped at frame 1. With the Pentax getting the roll leader to bind in the takeup spool was difficult, requiring a lot of manual assistance to feed it on/keep it taught whilst turning the advance lever (I haven't had this issue with any other film). However, if film slippage on the spool was an issue wouldn't you expect the reverse problem (i.e. cut off first frame/early frames)?

Presumably the backing paper is a standard length with a standard pattern printed on it, so if it is in fact an issue with the film one would assume it to be due to an error in where the film is taped onto the paper.

I need to do a few more experiments to try and nail the problem down, but at the moment I have little confidence using this film. I have another A12 for the Hassy so can try it in that and see if the problem persists.

Rudeofus · Sep 24, 2018

You don't need that many experiments: next time you shoot a roll, keep the backing paper and after development check, whether the arrow is in the right location. You can compare against known good film.

miha · Sep 24, 2018

Measure the lenght of the film. Mybe the film is just too short and the arrows are ok?

John Salim · Sep 24, 2018

If you still have the backing paper, measure the distance from the 'start' arrow to the leading edge of film ( not the sticky tape ).
It should be very close to 17cm.

John S

John Salim · Sep 24, 2018

MattKing said:
Is there any chance that the OP is mistaking a different marker for the 120 start line?

Not to be confused with 220 film, that does have additional 'start' marks.

John S

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

Rudeofus said:
You don't need that many experiments: next time you shoot a roll, keep the backing paper and after development check, whether the arrow is in the right location. You can compare against known good film.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will do that with the next roll of "good" film I develop.

miha said:
Measure the lenght of the film. Mybe the film is just too short and the arrows are ok?

I can check this. What length should the uncut film be?

John Salim said:
If you still have the backing paper, measure the distance from the 'start' arrow to the leading edge of film ( not the sticky tape ).
It should be very close to 17cm.

John S

But how will I know where the film starts without sacrificing a roll? There are numbers on the backing paper which obviously correspond to frame positions, but there are many dots & other markings near the numbers. Which correponds to the start of the film strip?

Rudeofus · Sep 24, 2018

GLS said:
But how will I know where the film starts without sacrificing a roll? There are numbers on the backing paper which obviously correspond to frame positions, but there are many dots & other markings near the numbers. Which correponds to the start of the film strip?

Take the backing paper from a roll of film you just developed, it should be fairly obvious where the film started. That way you can easily measure the distance between the arrow on the backing paper and the start of the film. You will see quickly, whether it's consistent across film brands.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2018

The first set of numbers ("1"), in the middle of the backing paper, indicate the middle of the first 6x6 frame. So that first, centred "1" should be ~20cm plus the length of film "leader" that the cameras create.
By film "leader", I mean the portion of film that you want to cut off when you put the negatives into the Printfile or similar negative holder sheet.
I would expect the centre "1" to be about 24cm from the Start mark.

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

I've just measured it and the middle "1" is 24.8 cm from the start arrow. I don't have any other backing papers on hand to compare it to though. As soon as I get a chance to develop a different film I'll see.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2018

GLS said:
I've just measured it and the middle "1" is 24.8 cm from the start arrow. I don't have any other backing papers on hand to compare it to though. As soon as I get a chance to develop a different film I'll see.

Looking just at the numbers and start mark on a roll of older T-Max 100 I have on hand, I measure 24.0 cm between the start mark and the centre "1".
Can you see where the residue of the attachment tape is in relation to the "1" mark? That attachment tape should have been very close to the exact end of the film itself.
On my old T-Max 100 backing paper, that tape residue and the centre "1" are about 7.5 cm apart.

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

MattKing said:
Can you see where the residue of the attachment tape is in relation to the "1" mark? That attachment tape should have been very close to the exact end of the film itself.
On my old T-Max 100 backing paper, that tape residue and the centre "1" are about 7.5 cm apart.

No residue that I can see, but there is a deformation/crease in the backing paper presumably caused by the tape, and it is between 7-8 cm from the "1", so that tallys with your results.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2018

GLS said:
No residue that I can see, but there is a deformation/crease in the backing paper presumably caused by the tape, and it is between 7-8 cm from the "1", so that tallys with your results.

Then it sounds like the film is correctly positioned with respect to the Start mark.

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

MattKing said:
Then it sounds like the film is correctly positioned with respect to the Start mark.

Yes it would appear so, which is puzzling.

I'll definitely have to try some more rolls, both in the other Hassy back and the Pentax, taking extra care with the loading and see what happens. In that regard, I was wondering about a possible solution to prevent any slippage during initial takeup, inspired by the little hole that Fuji puts in their films leaders to anchor it on the inner lug in their reels. Presumably one could punch a hole in the same place on any other brand of film and use it with a Fuji spool to ensure good takeup? Has anyone tried this?

miha · Sep 24, 2018

GLS said:
Yes it would appear so, which is puzzling.

Now all you need to do is to measure the film length and see how it compares.

GLS · Sep 24, 2018

miha said:
Now all you need to do is to measure the film length and see how it compares.

I already cut off and threw away the excess unused film from this strip, so can't measure the total length accurately. However, if the position of the first frame had been normal there would have easily been enough total film length to capture all the frames, so I don't think that's the problem either.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. It will remain a puzzle for the time being.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2018

The problem could be with the thickness of the spool. In that case though, it might not fit in the camera, and the spacing between the frames would be larger than normal.

GLS · Sep 25, 2018

MattKing said:
The problem could be with the thickness of the spool. In that case though, it might not fit in the camera, and the spacing between the frames would be larger than normal.

The spools used were just the standard size with a cross-slot in the end, and the frame spacing looks fine...

glbeas · Sep 25, 2018

The thickness could also be in the backing paper, but I have a hard time believing any backing paper that would still fit the spool would cause that much of a problem.

abruzzi · Sep 25, 2018

If spacing is normal (off the top of my head, maybe about 4mm, though I’ve never measured) then the next question would be start point, i.e. does the first frame start in the right spot for the camera? If it does, you’re likely looking at rolls that had slightly to little film. If the first frame starts late, then the film is attached too late on the paper or the paper is misprinted. *

* I’m discounting camera error since it has happened on two cameras, and user error since it sounds like other film are working for you. But it doesn’t rule those out, just makes them less likely.

Sirius Glass · Sep 25, 2018

With the Hasselblad, I had to slightly advance the arrow beyond the mark to keep the first frame from getting light struck until I had the offending backs CLA'ed.

GLS · Mar 30, 2019

An update on this situation:

I have just now shot another Rollei film (Ortho 25 plus) through the Hasselblad and had the exact same problem: first frame starts too far into the roll, and the last frame is therefore only partial and cut off by the end of the roll.

This problem has now occurred in RR80s and the above Ortho 25 plus in two different Hasselblad A12N backs (both of which perform flawlessly with films from Ilford, Kodak, Fuji), AND in my Pentax 6x7.

I have checked the backing papers for the affected RR80s and Ortho 25 plus, and the start arrows/frame numbers for both either match other films, or at worst are offset about 1 cm earlier. The latter situation should help the problem, if anything, not make it worse! The overall length of the backing papers also match other films.

I have just now measured the Ortho 25 plus film + backing paper and have recorded the following:

Distance from start arrow to deformation where the film was taped on = 16.5 cm

Distance from the same deformation to the middle "1" on backing paper = 9 cm

Distance from the start arrow to the middle "1" on backing paper = 25 cm

Film length = 81 cm

Frame spacing = 4 - 9 mm (nothing really out of the ordinary here)

Distance from start of film to the edge of frame 1 = 6.5 cm (this is abnormally large)

(The RR80s backing paper measurements also match those given above)

Can anyone please shed any more light here? This issue is getting aggravating, and is making it difficult to trust Rollei films (although I have shot a roll of RPX 25 through the Hasselblad, and that didn't have this problem).

Rollei Retro 80S - inaccurate start arrow placement on backing paper?

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