Rollei IR in a Grafmatic

[Truzi]

Does anyone have advice for using the thin Rollei IR sheet film in a Grafmatic (or Kinematic)?

Last week I finally got to put my Super Speed Graphic through it's paces - only the second time I've used it in the two months I've had it (the first was just to make sure if functioned). I had Rollei IR400 4x5 loaded in a Grafmatic, which jammed with the tray out when cycling to the next sheet. When I got the camera in a changing bag I found a sheet had slid out the end of a septum about half an inch, interfering with the function of the Grafmatic. Another sheet had simply come loose from one side of the septum (obviously it had slid down a bit to do this - but may have happened as I was unjamming it). I had double-checked when loading, and am sure all the film was loaded correctly and fully in the septa.

I was able to salvage 4 shots, but one may end up being a double exposure, and/or one may be unexposed Glad I didn't use a Kinematic.

The only threads I've found are regarding the development of this sheet film, but nothing about how the thin base can be difficult in a film holder. I've a Jobo 2509n, which threads suggest should be fine with this film.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That's my only criticism of this film. The very thin base. Sorry, I can't help you with your issue... I wouldn't bother with the Grafmatic. Load regular 4x5 holders.

 

[shutterfinger]

Film should fit in the septums firmly. Standard sheet film would slip around in the septums so I pressed the edges down to match a new one. The film should just slide under the edges of the septum with slight pressure and not move with the septum in any position. The film should not bind or buckle.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

But Rollei IR could bind/buckle due to extremely thin base. It's not stiff, like other films.

 

[shutterfinger]

Kodak TriX is .007 inch thick as are most other standard sheet films. The gap between the septum base and edge when measured should be .0065 to .00675 inch to hold the film firmly.
120 roll film is .0035 to .0045 inch thick depending on brand. Rollei IR is likely between the two and the rolled over edges of the septums can be adjusted to accommodate it.

 

[Maris]

Apart from the rolled edges of a Grafmatic septum the closed end has a couple of tiny leaf springs (fingers?) that capture the edge of the film and hold it securely against slipping out. These fingers can be bent down (carefully) so as to leave almost zero clearance. This way any film of any thickness can be held securely. When loading a septum in the darkroom I always give it a light tap downwards to make sure the film doesn't want to slide out.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Well Truzi, if you make it work with this film, let us know!

 

[John Koehrer]

I think there's a glue stick with an adhesive similar to "sticky notes" A dab in the middle of the septum
should do.
I wouldn't use regular glue stick.

 

[Truzi]

Thanx for the ideas so far. Paper shims crossed my mind, but would probably dislodge and cause issues. I don't think I want to bend the edges more, because this could cause issues with other film.

It's possible I only need a little friction - I was already thinking of something similar to glue stick, a smear of candle wax, a tiny dab of rubber cement, or even roughing fluid (I have some from when I was into magic back in high school).

Maris, can the springs easily be seen? I've not unloaded them yet or I'd check right now. Unfortunately, you have me wanting to bend open a septum and check it out, lol. Somewhere I have a couple broken units (for spare parts), but the septa are in good shape, so I probably shouldn't rip one apart to see how it works.

Edit to add: This happened just after I rotated the back to portrait orientation.

 

[shutterfinger]

Grafmatic 45 service manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1sPJkp-Mdghc3p0X21PSmI1Zmc/view?usp=sharing
closing the gap on a septum is done by having the septum on a flat, solid surface such as a piece of smooth tile or marble and a piece of hardwood or similar. Opening the gap can easily be done with a wood chisel or similar.
A shim will have to be thick enough to make the film fit snugly without moving. Use a digital caliper ($20 or less at amazon) to measure the film thickness.

 

[Maris]

...Maris, can the springs easily be seen? I've not unloaded them yet or I'd check right now. Unfortunately, you have me wanting to bend open a septum and check it out, lol. Somewhere I have a couple broken units (for spare parts), but the septa are in good shape, so I probably shouldn't rip one apart to see how it works....

Yes, they are easy to see. I'm holding a Grafmatic septum with one hand while typing with the other. Hold the septum with film side toward you and the thumb cut out at the left hand end of the bottom edge. Follow by eye the rolled left and right sides of the septum as they approach the end of the septum. About half an inch before the end the rolled edges become flat rather than rounded. About a quarter of and inch before the end of the septum the rolled edge becomes a thin spring finger that is bent down to touch the septum. This tiny spring finger is what grips the film to stop it just sliding out backwards. Bend the spring finger down if it's not holding the film. Work carefully. This is thin metal and it's easy to distort other things while bending that spring finger. Check that the job is good with a dead piece of film before loading fresh stuff. Good luck.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Thank you Maris, I did not know that.

 

[Truzi]

This is great!

Shutterfinger, I will find that service manual very useful. Would you have one for Kinematics as well? My first thought was that closing the entire length of the gap would cause issues with standard film. Now I'm thinking just near the closed end, as Maris points out. Combining your comments with Maris', I think I can work this out to my satisfaction.

Maris, I will remember what you said when I develop the film. I'm going leave it all in the backs until I develop... I have to get through the first batch to have empty boxes for storage.

Anyway, I pulled a septum from a Kinematic after reading your post. I know it's different from the Graflex, but I think I get the general idea.

 

[shutterfinger]

Shutterfinger, I will find that service manual very useful. Would you have one for Kinematics as well?

No I do not. I've only seen it mentioned once before on graflex.org.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

From what I can recall in the six Grafmatics that I have, some septums have the little fingers and some don't. As others have mentioned though, you can adjust the septums to hold film securely. It is easy to do just by pinching them with your fingers. I like the septums to have a tight fit for the film.

 

[richyd]

Just the other day I loaded a Grafmatic from a newly purchased pack of IR400. I ended up doing a few full cycles through it with the loaded film to test it as the slide thing that exposes a red dot after pushing a slide to be exposed wasn't working automatically (I just serviced one of the felt seals so maybe an issue with that). The point is that it worked fine without any film jamming, but I also always operate my grafmatics slowly and carefully.

One thing to check, because I did have issues before with two prior packs, is the length of the longest side of the film which I found was about 2mm longer than normal and I think that was causing problems before. I developed the one shot I have taken with this latest pack and the film dimensions match other makes. I do find though that the film is still too thin to be gripped securely but that doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

[shutterfinger]

After loading a grafmatic I cycle it until it locks then cycle it until it locks again. Any hiccups are encountered before I take it out of the changing bag. My grafmatics work smoother in camera when doing this procedure.

 

[Truzi]

I was finally able to find this thread again so I could do a follow up.

The film was developed a while ago - I'm still learning this camera, and to say the negatives are bulletproof would be quite an understatement - but I do have images.

So, I found the fingers Maris spoke of, and tried to tighten them forcefully but carefully. I have some sacrificial sheets to test with.
Regular film (FP4+ and HP5+) is now more snug, but the Rollei is still loose and slides out easily. Bending the top of the channel itself may put more pressure on the finger. Perhaps I'll try again when I'm feeling more careless, lol.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

If you had a jam one thing to check is if your septums are straight. They can sometimes get a little bow to them and that can make them jam. Don't load them backwards either. Ask me how I know.

Another thing to make sure of is that the film is all the way under the lip at the far end of the septum. Whenever I load a Grafmatic, I take all six septums in a pile and make sure no film is sticking out. I do this by feeling the area of the septum that is cut away and press them all down together. You will know right away if one isn't seated right. Only after that do I put the pile of septums in the holder as one unit so no sheets get dislodged. If you don't get the film seated under the lip, the slide could grab it and whammo, you have a jammed holder.

By the way, the method I use to tighten the "fingers" if you have those is to put something under the joint where the finger connects to the septum so the finger is slightly raised, then bend the finger down gently. That will put enough pressure on the sheet so it won't move regardless of how thick the sheet is.

I have been there and done that with the Grafmatics. No one gave me a d#mn t-shirt though....

 

[mpirie]

That's my only criticism of this film. The very thin base.

Has anyone notice that the cut film dimensions are not consistent?

I've had to throw out a couple sheets per box because they would not fit properly to my film holders.

 

[Truzi]

If you had a jam one thing to check is if your septums are straight. They can sometimes get a little bow to them and that can make them jam. Don't load them backwards either. Ask me how I know.

Another thing to make sure of is that the film is all the way under the lip at the far end of the septum. Whenever I load a Grafmatic, I take all six septums in a pile and make sure no film is sticking out. I do this by feeling the area of the septum that is cut away and press them all down together. You will know right away if one isn't seated right. Only after that do I put the pile of septums in the holder as one unit so no sheets get dislodged. If you don't get the film seated under the lip, the slide could grab it and whammo, you have a jammed holder.

By the way, the method I use to tighten the "fingers" if you have those is to put something under the joint where the finger connects to the septum so the finger is slightly raised, then bend the finger down gently. That will put enough pressure on the sheet so it won't move regardless of how thick the sheet is.

I have been there and done that with the Grafmatics. No one gave me a d#mn t-shirt though....

Everything is straight and was loaded under the lips, and the only issue was with the Rollei IR. I do have to learn how to rebuild my Kinematics, as they can be a bit "fiddly," as someone once stated in another thread. The Grafmatics are tanks, though.

I really appreciate your comment on how you bend the fingers... I was thinking about that, but worried it was a bad idea. Knowing someone else does it successfully gives me confidence.

 

[Truzi]

Success!
Thank you everyone for your help.

By the way, the method I use to tighten the "fingers" if you have those is to put something under the joint where the finger connects to the septum so the finger is slightly raised, then bend the finger down gently. That will put enough pressure on the sheet so it won't move regardless of how thick the sheet is.

I used your suggestion and got it to hold the film. I can firmly shake the septum and have the film stay put. Previously a gentle shake made it slide half-way out.
It took me a few tries because I was worried I'd ruin it - I have a bad history with anything less robust than a car (I've busted lug-nut studs and brake rotors).

Has anyone notice that the cut film dimensions are not consistent?

I've had to throw out a couple sheets per box because they would not fit properly to my film holders.

mpirie, I've not noticed, though I've not really paid attention and only used 6 sheets so far. I'll keep an "eye" out for this the next time I use some.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Glad I could help Truzi. Now go make some pictures!

 

[neilt3]

Has anyone notice that the cut film dimensions are not consistent?

I've had to throw out a couple sheets per box because they would not fit properly to my film holders.

I've noticed some are slightly smaller , not thrown any away as my film holders hold them .
Maybe not quite square , but they hold them in place .
The problem I have is when I come to develop them .
Being a bit loose in the holder ( H.P Combiplan or Jobo 5"x4" reel) needs a bit of care .
When I finish my darkroom I might go over to tray development for I.R and just use the tanks for Iilford and Fomapan films .

 

[mpirie]

I've had one or two sheets that when loaded into film holders have had a distinct outward bow to them......so sacrificed them rather than risk it.

I may join you in using trays for IR film instead of the tanks.