Rollei Blackbird film

streondj · Oct 27, 2012

Dear simon ilford photo.
Calling acetate archival is like saying,
"anything can be archived" if it's cold enough,
ya mammoths are archival too I guess.

In order to make acetate archival grade,
you have to keep them in a dry fridge.
however at room temperature it's lifetime is decades.
Triacetate film is also sensitive to humidity and water.

Whereas glass, paper, and polyester can all be stored at room temperature for centuries.

Polyester will always outlive the binder and color.
Also you can store polyester film in your library,
where albums and other records belong.

I don't know anyone that keeps a dry fridge in their library.
And the fridge in my kitchen is too humid,
mold grows in food left too long,
as with most kitchen fridges,
unsuitable for acetate film.

In terms of the camera winding mechanism,
it can be repaired, even reinforced.

If polyester film is so much cheaper, then Ilford should make some.
Hey perhaps can even "innovate" and make some vegan film, with gum arabic binder.
Then I and other healthy young people expecting to live a long time, would have reason to buy your film.

Otherwise Rollei knows where it's at with polyester! Woo hoo :-D
They are often sold out, even in online stores.
Obviously other people know its benefits also.
Gonna have to order direct from Germany,
bulk of course, it's worth it .

Logan Streondj longevity enthusiast.

Stephanie Brim · Oct 28, 2012

Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good, I'm going to call bullshit on this. Those films were invariably NOT stored in ideal environments and the film base is still fine. The *emulsion* may have gone bad, but that isn't the fault of the base.

streondj said:
Dear simon ilford photo.
Calling acetate archival is like saying,
"anything can be archived" if it's cold enough,
ya mammoths are archival too I guess.

In order to make acetate archival grade,
you have to keep them in a dry fridge.
however at room temperature it's lifetime is decades.
Triacetate film is also sensitive to humidity and water.

Whereas glass, paper, and polyester can all be stored at room temperature for centuries.

Polyester will always outlive the binder and color.
Also you can store polyester film in your library,
where albums and other records belong.

I don't know anyone that keeps a dry fridge in their library.
And the fridge in my kitchen is too humid,
mold grows in food left too long,
as with most kitchen fridges.

In terms of the camera winding mechanism,
it can be repaired, even reinforced.

If polyester film is so much cheaper, then Ilford should make some.
Hey perhaps can even "innovate" and make some vegan film, with gum arabic binder.
Then I and other healthy young people expecting to live a long time, would have reason to buy your film.

Otherwise Rollei knows where it's at with polyester! Woo hoo :-D
They are often sold out, even in online stores.
Obviously other people know its benefits also.
Gonna have to order direct from Germany.

Logan Streondj longevity enthusiast.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 28, 2012

I am afraid that most on APUG would side with Mr Galley on the archival aspect of today's acetate base. What are your credentials Mr Streondj?

brucemuir · Oct 28, 2012

streondj said:
Then I and other healthy young people expecting to live a long time, would have reason to buy your film.

Logan Streondj longevity enthusiast.

IDK you could buy it because in the right hands it's capable of producing beautiful images.
Seems like a good enough reason for this old unhealthy person that expects to live for a while yet :devil:

cmacd123 · Oct 28, 2012

while it is true that Acetate can break down, particularly if stored in areas of high temperature and Humidity, accompanied by rusty metal, it is relatively stable. High humidity can also allow the groth of fungus on any type of film, so keeping the humidity down is always to the good.

Poly film is used for industrial photography, (such as shooting from aircraft, etc) as it is very dimensionally stable and very tough. This is the same reason is is used for Motion Picture PRINT film. On the minus side it is curly, and attracts dust.

I shot an old roll of HP5 Motor drive film from my freezer this summer, it was of course rather fogged but still worked. I used a canon 300V as most of my canons stop after 36 shots no matter how much film they have. I still have the special Stainless Tank and reel, but the filling cap has been misplaced. I managed with some gaffer tape.

Most movie negative is still Acetate.

NedL · Oct 28, 2012

steven_e007 said:
I've just clicked on a few APUIG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93.

Maybe I'm tired right now but I'm still laughing. I'm only 51 and honestly I don't know what a hipster is. That's OK. I'm glad there are young people shooting film.

AgX · Oct 29, 2012

steven_e007 said:
I've just clicked on a few APUG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93. Film will die out when no one buys it any more. I don't think the typical APUGer is going to be the best candidate to future proof film long term...

Personally I think the more trendy, the more 'hip' (whatever it means) to youngsters, the better.

I'm perfectly fine with film being marketed as 'cool', 'with it', ''sick', 'bad', or whatever other youth fashionable labels that can be stuck on it.

Just make sure the kiddies buy the stuff. I don't care whether they know how to use it, just as long as they BUY IT.

They'll get old, cynical, pedantic and start arguing about DOF tables and agitation techniques soon enough....

Good point, but were are those?

see here:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

(Well, following steven's argumentation, maybe it's not even necessary to see them, as long as the effect is in the company results.)

streondj · Oct 30, 2012

Gerald C Koch said:
I am afraid that most on APUG would side with Mr Galley on the archival aspect of today's acetate base. What are your credentials Mr Streondj?

Perhaps they would out of wishful thinking *shrugs*.

I read and research things I'm interested in.
Really you don't have to take my word for it,
it's common knowledge amongst most archivists.
I've read plenty of sources and textbooks about photography that mention it.

cmacd123 said:
Poly film is used for industrial photography, (such as shooting from aircraft, etc) as it is very dimensionally stable and very tough. This is the same reason is is used for Motion Picture PRINT film. On the minus side it is curly, and attracts dust.

hmmm I'm pretty sure it's acetate that's curly,
I know at least rollei superpan has no curling layers so it's flat.
dust eh? well typically it's stored in an album, so that's hardly an issue.

Most movie negative is still Acetate.

ya, how unfortunate for those movies..

Jean-Louis Bigourdan said:
Fifty years after the replacement of nitrate by triacetate film base, motion-picture film archives are facing another preservation challenge. Today it is likely that most archives are affected by vinegar syndrome. It is widely recognized that acetate base film is inherently unstable. Many institutions, however, may not have given sufficient attention to the problem of preserving their acetate film collections for the future.

Triacetate film base, like nitrate, is a chemically unstable support. Both are subject to spontaneous decay, which shortens the life expectancy of photographic film. ...
Data indicate that freshly processed acetate base film can last for several centuries in cold storage. Under adverse storage conditions, however, acetate base decay has been observed after only a few years....
Despite archivists’ efforts and dedication, film collections have rarely benefited from optimum storage conditions. Consequently, most acetate collections are affected by the vinegar syndrome and may be decaying at an unacceptable rate.

source: https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/webfm_send/308

Point being, even if you go through the trouble of freezing all your negatives now,
there is no guarantee that they'll continue to be frozen for generations to come,
so may as well put them on a film that'll be stable at room temperature.

From a cost-analysis perspective, acetate film is more expensive,
since on the long term, have to spend energy freezing it.
Which is more emissions, and toxins in the atmosphere.

Whereas polyester will do great on a book shelf,
in an album, with the photos and records.
cheaper and more eco-friendly .

AgX · Oct 30, 2012

You made some good points!
Even more could bed added.

However, so far I know the dramatic cases of vinegar syndrome have only been reported about tightly spooled films (eg.cine films), not on films stored in paper sleeves. Aside of that longevity prognosis in general is somewhat tricky.

But more important: IlfordPhoto seemingly has become the holy cow here at Apug, so you likely won't get much approval here.

georg16nik · Oct 30, 2012

Stephanie Brim said:
Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..

Those are cellulose nitrate films.
Triacetate is ca. 1950 - ..
Cold (-15° to 4° C) and dry (30% to 40% relative humidity) environments are the only means of preserving nitrate and triacetate originals over long periods of time.
Polyester is ca. 1955 - ..
Black & white negatives on polyester support may be stored at a temperature of 18° C or lower and a relative humidity of 30% to 40%.
Color negatives on polyester support require cold storage for their long term preservation.

AgX said:
.....
However, so far I know the dramatic cases of vinegar syndrome have only been reported about tightly spooled films (eg.cine films), not on films stored in paper sleeves. Aside of that longevity prognosis in general is somewhat tricky.

At room temp acetate films stored in soft paper can out-gas to some extend the acid fumes, thus slowing down the base to eat itself up.
Acetate films in Glassine or Clear File (polypropylene) sleeves does not breathe well.

The deterioration process is auto-catalytic and moisture and temperature dependent.

dsmccrac · Oct 30, 2012

OK so glassline are no better than the plastic ones for off gassing?

I not using the glassline any more - another PrintFile user - but I remember my first photo instructor praising the glassline for archival reasons. I think I moved to PrintFiles for ease of contact printing (which I do not do any more-I scan everything and print 'contact sheets' in iphoto)

I have found this an interesting post. I want long term archiving (I was not aware that the acetate base we use now is different from the stuff from the 20's) but polyester concerns me as I have torn sprocket holes on some film and want my film to give before the gears do!!

I also want to keep using the films I love so maybe I just need to look at my storage methods.

desertrat · Oct 30, 2012

Stephanie Brim said:
Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..

georg16nik said:
Those are cellulose nitrate films.
Triacetate is ca. 1950 - ..
Cold (-15° to 4° C) and dry (30% to 40% relative humidity) environments are the only means of preserving nitrate and triacetate originals over long periods of time.
Polyester is ca. 1955 - ..
Black & white negatives on polyester support may be stored at a temperature of 18° C or lower and a relative humidity of 30% to 40%.
Color negatives on polyester support require cold storage for their long term preservation.

At room temp acetate films stored in soft paper can out-gas to some extend the acid fumes, thus slowing down the base to eat itself up.
Acetate films in Glassine or Clear File (polypropylene) sleeves does not breathe well.

The deterioration process is auto-catalytic and moisture and temperature dependent.

I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.

georg16nik · Oct 30, 2012

desertrat said:
I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.

Perhaps You are referring to:
diacetate ca. 1923 ca. 1955
or Mixed esters:
acetate propionate 1927 ca. 1949
acetate butyrate - 1936 today

Triacetate was made after 1950 due to the availability and lower cost of methylene chloride.

georg16nik · Oct 30, 2012

dsmccrac said:
OK so glassline are no better than the plastic ones for off gassing?

I not using the glassline any more - another PrintFile user - but I remember my first photo instructor praising the glassline for archival reasons. I think I moved to PrintFiles for ease of contact printing (which I do not do any more-I scan everything and print 'contact sheets' in iphoto)

I have found this an interesting post. I want long term archiving (I was not aware that the acetate base we use now is different from the stuff from the 20's) but polyester concerns me as I have torn sprocket holes on some film and want my film to give before the gears do!!

I also want to keep using the films I love so maybe I just need to look at my storage methods.

Glassine pH at time of manufacture is 6.8-7.5 but is unbuffered, so pH value is expected to drop when exposed to normal
atmospheric conditions.
There are acid-free paper products, buffered against acid deterioration - pH 8.0-8.5 mostly they use calcium carbonate buffer.
Usually available from library suppliers.

Polyester could be a challenge for 35mm auto-everything cameras.
I haven't experienced problems with manual 35mm ones or MF. Light piping might be tricky when load / unload film sometimes.

AgX · Oct 30, 2012

As clarification to the posts above:

All acetate-films (the film base) are made from a syrop-like mass containing an organic solvent, coated onto a heated base and coold down. The so-called tri-acetate films (most common) have features superior to other acetate-films, but need a solvent, that for long time was expensive (even though getting recycled for the greatest part). As an alternative to offer safety film-base other acetate-films were used, as films based on di-acetate or mixed acetates.

That acetate is standing in principle for short side-chains to the long cellulosis-chain, might these side-chains now based on one type of chain as in di- or tri-acetate, or a mixture of different chains as in aceto-proprionate, aceto-butyrate.
But as you see aceto/acetate is always involved, which hints at the origin from acetic-acid.

To the degree those mixed acetates were used on large scale production, sources vary to great extend.

That aceto-bond is the weak linkage and the cause for degradation.
Furthermore acetate-films may contain a softener that in long-term perspective is volatile.
Both the linkage and the softener issue is seen in the old nitrate-films too.

This is why some see a similar problem to come as experienced with nitrate-films, lacking of course that problem of ignition.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 30, 2012

Many improvements have been made in the preparation of acetate films since their first inception. Vinegarization stories always involve older negatives. Both Ilford and Kodak say acetate films are archival and I accept their word on the matter.

georg16nik · Oct 30, 2012

Gerald C Koch said:
Many improvements have been made in the preparation of acetate films since their first inception. Vinegarization stories always involve older negatives. Both Ilford and Kodak say acetate films are archival and I accept their word on the matter.

They are archival, when frozen:

Maximum Temperature 36°F / 2°C and Relative Humidity Range of 20% to 50%
Maximum Temperature 41°F / 5°C and Relative Humidity Range of 20% to 40%
Maximum Temperature 45°F / 7°C and Relative Humidity Range of 20% to 30%

As per ISO Standard 18911 - Processed safety photographic films -- Storage practices
http://www.iso.org/iso/home/store/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=46602

and here some publications from Rochester Institute of Technology
https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/resources/publications

heterolysis · Oct 30, 2012

All of my dad's negatives from prior to 1972 (40+ years, for all the 93-year-olds that are fuzzy on math nowadays ) are still in perfect shape. They have been stored in a damp basement no colder than 20C for almost all of that time. Will they go bad in another 10 years? I'll update you when apug's 20th rolls around. In the meantime, I'll use the time to scan all 4600 frames!

As for the "hipster" comments earlier in the thread --- I find it silly that we can say plastic cameras aren't real cameras and then talk here about pinholes with a straight face---a Ford Focus is no BMW, but it's still a car. As someone much younger than 93 (25 in fact), I can say that even since I picked up a camera film has become harder and harder to find. If I can buy "hipster" film at my local art store, so be it. $15 3-packs aren't a terrible deal these days as chances are there are only two other places in town selling "real" film. Sure $3 Arista exists, but it's not $3 by the time I get it up to Canada.

The biggest problem with the new lomo films (and the reason this thread started) is the lack of data available for processing. I bought a 3-pack of Lomo B&W when on vacation and unable to find any other films, and I ended up having to guess the development for my roll of Lady Grey 400 as there was no data for DD-X. Luckily I was pushing it several stops and the exact time, whether 7 or 8min for example, became less significant.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 30, 2012

heterolysis said:
All of my dad's negatives from prior to 1972 (40+ years, for all the 93-year-olds that are fuzzy on math nowadays ) are still in perfect shape. They have been stored in a damp basement no colder than 20C for almost all of that time.

Family photographs from the 1930's to the present stored in hot and humid Florida climate also show no vinegarization,

georg16nik · Oct 31, 2012

heterolysis said:
All of my dad's negatives from prior to 1972 (40+ years, for all the 93-year-olds that are fuzzy on math nowadays ) are still in perfect shape. They have been stored in a damp basement no colder than 20C for almost all of that time...

Please, share Your family storage practices.. millions archivist, photographers and cinematographers are gonna be very thankful

Gerald C Koch said:
Family photographs from the 1930's to the present stored in hot and humid Florida climate also show no vinegarization,

Yes, I remember that You shared this in other threads.
Perhaps You are using Kodak molecular sieve acid scavenger?
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Support/Technical_Information/Storage/molecular.htm

Andy K · Oct 31, 2012

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
www.rollei.com have neither too much information. If you follow the links you reach :http://www.macodirect.de/analog-col....html?osCsid=93c67dc05e83dad01d3f43c9b61a1865

There are blackbird , nightbird , redbird , crossbird films at the list.

For blackbird below information listed :
Negativ Film black & white

ISO 25/15° / ISO 100/21°

process 100/21° D76 20° stock 10 min
process 25/25° D76 20° stock 6 min
process 100/21° RHS 20° 1+7 10 min
process

25/25

RHS 20° 1+7 6 min

Important handling notes for films with a synthetic film base:
The emulsion is coated onto a transparent synthetic base providing excellent long-term and dimensional stability.
This films has to be loaded in the camera and unloaded in subdued light. Before and after exposition always store the films in the black light-tight film-container. Not following these advices can cause light infiltration through the base material to the exposed pictures. Rollfilms: Please take care in handling the 120 size films in keeping the film-roll tight with two fingers after breaking the unexposed adhesive label to avoid that the film is rolling to "spring off". The same procedure should be followed after taking the roll film out of the camera. The exposed film should be kept compellingly again in the black light-tight rollfilm-container.

From Rolleis Creative Edition comes the Blackbird 100asa Black and White film. A new stock of great contrast, deep midtones and rich blacks. 36 exposures, process with Black and White chemicals

An picture from the film :

View attachment 50152

Thank you for posting this information Mustafa. I am very tempted by this film.

cmacd123 · Oct 31, 2012

streondj said:
hmmm I'm pretty sure it's acetate that's curly,

Poly film is subject to what is called "Core Set" where if it has been currled up, it will tend to want to stay currled up. So Poly sheet film may indeed be flater than acetate sheet film. But Poly roll film will likly show some "set" and want to stay currled.

As far as longevity of the two bases, the Poly is More stable, but acetate these days is also quite good. The factors that are known to cause problems with acetate are also bad for the image. I am sure that an archivist wanting to keep Poly film "forever" would also try to justify cold starage, particularly if the image was in colour.

streondj · Oct 31, 2012

Core-set is okay, considering that if it's stored flat in an album,
it'll have a tendency to continue to be flat *shrugs*.
It just means that polyester has some memory.

Ya, chromogenic films require cold storage.
blackbird the topic of this thread is however a black and white film, so should be fine at room temperature.

I'm actually considering developing a longevity-film for color, based on autochrome,
but using fewer layers, but with chemically stable mineral pigments,
then could develop it with eco-friendly B&W developer also .

AgX · Oct 31, 2012

Core set is not okay. Buckles induced from roller in the film transport system could form problems at the image plane.

georg16nik · Nov 1, 2012

streondj said:
...
Ya, chromogenic films require cold storage.
blackbird the topic of this thread is however a black and white film, so should be fine at room temperature...

Fine at room temperature for how long?
With stable bases like poly the emulsion might shrink more than the base at room temp

Charles is spot on that every type requires cold storage.
The Polyester B&W ones are less demanding in the short run but You still need reasonable relative humidity and in the long run You will resort to cold storage.

All color films, regardless base support need cold storage. Those dyes will fade at room temp and it doesn't mater if the emulsion is coated on triacetate or polyester. The only way to slow down fading is cold storage.

The color production from movie industry is usually "printed" on YCM separation archival masters - black-and-white polyester film stock and its normally cold stored as well, not without a reason.

Rollei Blackbird film

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