Dear simon ilford photo.
Calling acetate archival is like saying,
"anything can be archived" if it's cold enough,
ya mammoths are archival too I guess.
In order to make acetate archival grade,
you have to keep them in a dry fridge.
however at room temperature it's lifetime is decades.
Triacetate film is also sensitive to humidity and water.
Whereas glass, paper, and polyester can all be stored at room temperature for centuries.
Polyester will always outlive the binder and color.
Also you can store polyester film in your library,
where albums and other records belong.
I don't know anyone that keeps a dry fridge in their library.
And the fridge in my kitchen is too humid,
mold grows in food left too long,
as with most kitchen fridges.
In terms of the camera winding mechanism,
it can be repaired, even reinforced.
If polyester film is so much cheaper, then Ilford should make some.
Hey perhaps can even "innovate" and make some vegan film, with gum arabic binder.
Then I and other healthy young people expecting to live a long time, would have reason to buy your film.
Otherwise Rollei knows where it's at with polyester! Woo hoo :-D
They are often sold out, even in online stores.
Obviously other people know its benefits also.
Gonna have to order direct from Germany.
Logan Streondj longevity enthusiast.
Then I and other healthy young people expecting to live a long time, would have reason to buy your film.
Logan Streondj longevity enthusiast.
I've just clicked on a few APUIG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93.
I've just clicked on a few APUG profiles and checked a few ages. After a quick and dirty calculation I see the average age of a typicall APUG user is 93. Film will die out when no one buys it any more. I don't think the typical APUGer is going to be the best candidate to future proof film long term...
Personally I think the more trendy, the more 'hip' (whatever it means) to youngsters, the better.
I'm perfectly fine with film being marketed as 'cool', 'with it', ''sick', 'bad', or whatever other youth fashionable labels that can be stuck on it.
Just make sure the kiddies buy the stuff. I don't care whether they know how to use it, just as long as they BUY IT.
They'll get old, cynical, pedantic and start arguing about DOF tables and agitation techniques soon enough....
I am afraid that most on APUG would side with Mr Galley on the archival aspect of today's acetate base. What are your credentials Mr Streondj?
hmmm I'm pretty sure it's acetate that's curly,Poly film is used for industrial photography, (such as shooting from aircraft, etc) as it is very dimensionally stable and very tough. This is the same reason is is used for Motion Picture PRINT film. On the minus side it is curly, and attracts dust.
ya, how unfortunate for those movies..Most movie negative is still Acetate.
source: https://www.imagepermanenceinstitute.org/webfm_send/308Jean-Louis Bigourdan said:Fifty years after the replacement of nitrate by triacetate film base, motion-picture film archives are facing another preservation challenge. Today it is likely that most archives are affected by vinegar syndrome. It is widely recognized that acetate base film is inherently unstable. Many institutions, however, may not have given sufficient attention to the problem of preserving their acetate film collections for the future.
Triacetate film base, like nitrate, is a chemically unstable support. Both are subject to spontaneous decay, which shortens the life expectancy of photographic film. ...
Data indicate that freshly processed acetate base film can last for several centuries in cold storage. Under adverse storage conditions, however, acetate base decay has been observed after only a few years....
Despite archivists’ efforts and dedication, film collections have rarely benefited from optimum storage conditions. Consequently, most acetate collections are affected by the vinegar syndrome and may be decaying at an unacceptable rate.
Those are cellulose nitrate films.Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..
.....
However, so far I know the dramatic cases of vinegar syndrome have only been reported about tightly spooled films (eg.cine films), not on films stored in paper sleeves. Aside of that longevity prognosis in general is somewhat tricky.
Stephanie Brim said:Considering that there are negatives around from the 20s and 30's in box/folding cameras that are still good..
I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.Those are cellulose nitrate films.
Triacetate is ca. 1950 - ..
Cold (-15° to 4° C) and dry (30% to 40% relative humidity) environments are the only means of preserving nitrate and triacetate originals over long periods of time.
Polyester is ca. 1955 - ..
Black & white negatives on polyester support may be stored at a temperature of 18° C or lower and a relative humidity of 30% to 40%.
Color negatives on polyester support require cold storage for their long term preservation.
At room temp acetate films stored in soft paper can out-gas to some extend the acid fumes, thus slowing down the base to eat itself up.
Acetate films in Glassine or Clear File (polypropylene) sleeves does not breathe well.
The deterioration process is auto-catalytic and moisture and temperature dependent.
I don't know about Europe, but in the U.S., nitrate roll films were replaced by acetate long before 1920. Amateur motion picture films went to acetate early on, too. Only professional motion picture films continued to use nitrate base into the 1940s.
OK so glassline are no better than the plastic ones for off gassing?
I not using the glassline any more - another PrintFile user - but I remember my first photo instructor praising the glassline for archival reasons. I think I moved to PrintFiles for ease of contact printing (which I do not do any more-I scan everything and print 'contact sheets' in iphoto)
I have found this an interesting post. I want long term archiving (I was not aware that the acetate base we use now is different from the stuff from the 20's) but polyester concerns me as I have torn sprocket holes on some film and want my film to give before the gears do!!
I also want to keep using the films I love so maybe I just need to look at my storage methods.
Many improvements have been made in the preparation of acetate films since their first inception. Vinegarization stories always involve older negatives. Both Ilford and Kodak say acetate films are archival and I accept their word on the matter.
All of my dad's negatives from prior to 1972 (40+ years, for all the 93-year-olds that are fuzzy on math nowadays) are still in perfect shape. They have been stored in a damp basement no colder than 20C for almost all of that time.
All of my dad's negatives from prior to 1972 (40+ years, for all the 93-year-olds that are fuzzy on math nowadays) are still in perfect shape. They have been stored in a damp basement no colder than 20C for almost all of that time...
Family photographs from the 1930's to the present stored in hot and humid Florida climate also show no vinegarization,
www.rollei.com have neither too much information. If you follow the links you reach :http://www.macodirect.de/analog-col....html?osCsid=93c67dc05e83dad01d3f43c9b61a1865
There are blackbird , nightbird , redbird , crossbird films at the list.
For blackbird below information listed :
Negativ Film black & white
ISO 25/15° / ISO 100/21°
process 100/21° D76 20° stock 10 min
process 25/25° D76 20° stock 6 min
process 100/21° RHS 20° 1+7 10 min
process
25/25
RHS 20° 1+7 6 min
Important handling notes for films with a synthetic film base:
The emulsion is coated onto a transparent synthetic base providing excellent long-term and dimensional stability.
This films has to be loaded in the camera and unloaded in subdued light. Before and after exposition always store the films in the black light-tight film-container. Not following these advices can cause light infiltration through the base material to the exposed pictures. Rollfilms: Please take care in handling the 120 size films in keeping the film-roll tight with two fingers after breaking the unexposed adhesive label to avoid that the film is rolling to "spring off". The same procedure should be followed after taking the roll film out of the camera. The exposed film should be kept compellingly again in the black light-tight rollfilm-container.
From Rolleis Creative Edition comes the Blackbird 100asa Black and White film. A new stock of great contrast, deep midtones and rich blacks. 36 exposures, process with Black and White chemicals
An picture from the film :
View attachment 50152
hmmm I'm pretty sure it's acetate that's curly,
...
Ya, chromogenic films require cold storage.
blackbird the topic of this thread is however a black and white film, so should be fine at room temperature...
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