Rodinal Stand Development: Maximum possible dilution using 3ml rodinal?

tomfrh · Jul 18, 2017

I generally use stand development. I use ~3ml rodinal per roll and mix with enough water to cover whatever film I'm developing.

I was debating online about specifying in terms of dilution (e.g. 1:100) vs rodinal quantity (e.g. 3ml). I strongly believe it's rodinal per roll that counts. Someone challenged me and said concentration matters, and that 3ml rodinal in 1litre water wouldn't work, because 1:333 is "too diluted". So I did this test and it worked fine (I left for maybe 6 hours to give the rodinal a chance to find the film). Nice contrast range from clear to solid black.

It got me wondering though - how far could you dilute 3ml rodinal and still have it work? If you diluted 3ml in say 10 litres of water and left it a week would it get there?

Any insight into how it actually works would be appreciated.

Harry Stevens · Jul 21, 2017

This is the road to madness....... 8ml/10ml to 480ml for me even in a reluctant 1hr stand development.

I have used Rodinal as a paper developer and it gave up the ghost after twenty minuets I think it runs out of steam within 30 min when diluted from stock, just my experience and others could put me right, also I dont think it would do your film any good being soaked over such a long time period,though experimenting can be interesting.

For me I like Rodinal at 1:50 and normal 20c development times.

You may find this of interest on Rodinal stand development I can't vouch for accuracy of the information given as I ain't no chemist but it is a good read on the working of low dilution Rodinal stand development .

http://jbhildebrand.com/2011/tutorials/workflow-tutorial-2-stand-development-with-rodinal/

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Jul 21, 2017

I think it is difficult to give any general advice. Especially when working with weak dilutions or smaller amounts of Rodinal per Film, I have the impression that it depends on the film type if it will work or not. I have often stand developed Fuji Acros in a 1:200 dilution for two hours (2.5ml Rodinal in 500ml water) and this even works well for two rolls, e.g. only 1.25ml Rodinal per roll. Lately, I have mostly been using Rollei RPX films (25, 100 and 400) and here, 1.25ml/roll seems not to be enough. RPX 25 and RPX 100 come great with a 1:100 dilution for one hour (5ml Rodinal, 500ml water, 2.5ml/roll), but this is also not enough for the RPX 400. With this dilution/amount, the RPX 400 negatives have great tonality and can easily be scanned, but are so flat, that they are difficult to wet print. Increasing the development time to 90 minutes helps a little bit, but I have the impression, that the RPX 400 could use more than 2.5ml per roll, I haven't had time to do any thorough tests though.

I have had similar experiences with the Ilford films (PanF, FP4 and HP5), that faster films seem to require more Rodinal per roll than slower films.

The active developing agent, p-aminophenol, only works above a certain pH level, so Rodinal will indeed reach a level, where it is 'too diluted' and won't work at all. When diluted, it will also start oxidizing and at some point expire, but I would expect even strongly diluted Rodinal to stay good for several hours. Your 1:333 dilution obviously works though and here, Kiril Stankov writes about using a 1:800 dilution over night to develop FP4: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/effect-of-rodinal-dilutions.18431/

ewbank1 · Jul 21, 2017

I've done 3.5 ml of Rodinal in 1.5 liters since that was the size of the tube I was using for the 8x10 X ray film for 2 hours at around 20 C, inverting at 30 minute intervals. It worked quite well. So my experience is that high dilutions can work.

pentaxuser · Jul 21, 2017

Give it a try with ever increasing volumes of liquid in, say, steps of 1 litre at at time and let us know at what point it no longer seems to work. I wonder how you place the film into a large container and leave it for hours without exposing the film to daylight as you leave the room? A lightproof, black container, I presume.

Let us know how it goes

P.S. as extensive as APUG is I doubt if we have anyone here who has actual experience of using these kind of quantities of diluted Rodinal, hence my recommendation to give it a try

pentaxuser

trendland · Jul 21, 2017

If there is a realy nice and obviously interesting concern of dilution with developers it is with rodinal.
I had a try 1:200 with R3 at about 4,5 hours. Because I knew I can't overdevelope the film the time was in concern I wasn't at home.

!

with regards

NB23 · Jul 22, 2017

Why stabd development?
I am allergic to this fad.

Lachlan Young · Jul 22, 2017

Even at 1+100 Rodinal runs out of steam at 20 minutes or thereabouts, and all that stand development (as opposed to altering agitation intervals between 30s & 5 minutes) really offers is an enhanced chance of uneven development. Depending on what film you used, you might well reach an OK contrast index at your claimed dilution, but it's a pretty pointless process.

mshchem · Jul 22, 2017

I don't get it. Why fool around with all this? I use XTOL 1+1 (or straight) in a small tank or Jobo. Use split contrast printing. Rodinol works great when used as directed. I understand the theory behind stand development. I just don't believe it changes anything with pre-hardened thin emulsion modern films. I don't doubt you can get decent negatives, I just think it's a bit like the "non-GMO", gluten free nonsense.
MHO, Mike

Gerald C Koch · Jul 23, 2017

NB23 said:
Why stabd development?
I am allergic to this fad.

+1000

Gerald C Koch · Jul 23, 2017

I believe that Agfa stated a minimum amount of developer per roll (80 in2) at ~7 ml. Using much less than this is asking for trouble.

Jarin Blaschke · Jul 23, 2017

I use dilute (1+99), stand-developed Rodinal for extreme contrast situations like night photography, milking the maximum possible real speed from handheld Delta 3200 or for taming ortho film. For everything else, the tonality suffers, especially in separating highlights. For normal photography, partial stand (3-4 minute agitations) was the limit for giving edge effects, before the contrast mushed out and the curve isn't straight anymore.

Lachlan Young · Jul 23, 2017

Jarin Blaschke said:
milking the maximum possible real speed from handheld Delta 3200

Is this in comparison to XTOL or DD-X? I'd be pretty sceptical of Rodinal getting better shadow speed than those two.

tomfrh · Jul 23, 2017

pentaxuser said:
Give it a try with ever increasing volumes of liquid in, say, steps of 1 litre at at time and let us know at what point it no longer seems to work. I wonder how you place the film into a large container and leave it for hours without exposing the film to daylight as you leave the room? A lightproof, black container, I presume.

I might do this. I'm curious how weakly you can dilute 3ml ordinal before it fails.

As for how I did it. I poured the developer into a stainless steel bowl, turned the lights off, loaded the film onto the reel and dropped it into the bowl, then covered that bowl with a bigger bowl.

mshchem said:
don't get it. Why fool around with all this

NB23 said:
Why stabd development?
I am allergic to this fad.

I simply prefer stand development. It's a simple and robust method. I like the "set and forget" aspect, as opposed to controlling via monitoring of time/temperature/process etc. I like controlling solely via quantity of rodinal and not having to bother with timers as thermometers and agitation cycles. All that outweighs any negative aspects, although I appreciate that some people prefer otherwise.

As for my original question here - I'm trying to clarify my understanding of stand development. If I know the diluton at which 3ml flat dosing per roll begins to fail then I will have a better understanding of this method and be more confident at whatever concentrations I use it at.

faberryman · Jul 23, 2017

Is it because Rodinal is so expensive that you want to use extremely high dilutions?

tomfrh · Jul 23, 2017

faberryman said:
Is it because Rodinal is so expensive that you want to use extremely high dilutions?

Yes I know it's cheap.

I don't particularly want to use high dilutions, I'm just curious as to how far you can dilute 3ml of Rodinal before it stops working.

Jarin Blaschke · Jul 23, 2017

Lachlan Young said:
Is this in comparison to XTOL or DD-X? I'd be pretty sceptical of Rodinal getting better shadow speed than those two.

I wouldn't know about those developers. I only meant in comparison to Rodinal 1+50 with more "normal" agitation.

Gerald C Koch · Jul 24, 2017

tomfrh said:
Yes I know it's cheap.

I don't particularly want to use high dilutions, I'm just curious as to how far you can dilute 3ml of Rodinal before it stops working.

It's not a point of Rodinal ceasing to work. Such a solution would have to be VERY, VERY dilute. However dilute solutions cause local exhaustion of the developer which can lead to several undesirable effects such as edge effects that are very intrusive and degrade the image.

tron_ · Jul 24, 2017

Oh no, stand developing always opens up Pandora's box on here. I've used it before but much prefer 1+1 D-76 or 1+4 DD-X these days. Anyways FWIW when I did do stand developing I would always use at least 5mL of Rodinal, which at 1+100 would give me a perfect 5mL/500mL Rodinal/Water split. Personally I wouldn't recommend using less than 5mL of Rodinal as it will exhaust faster, and possibly before, the magic one hour mark of stand developing.

tomfrh · Jul 24, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
It's not a point of Rodinal ceasing to work

Perhaps not for you, but for me it is the question I want to understand.

3ml in 300ml works fine(1:100)
3ml in 500ml works fine (1:166)
3ml in 1000ml works fine (1:333)

Presumably it will stop working at a certain level of dilution. I'm curious where this is.

pentaxuser · Jul 24, 2017

tomfrh said:
Perhaps not for you, but for me it is the question I want to understand.

3ml in 300ml works fine(1:100)
3ml in 500ml works fine (1:166)
3ml in 1000ml works fine (1:333)

Presumably it will stop working at a certain level of dilution. I'm curious where this is.

I empathise with your curiosity as I have tried to indicate. I suspect like others here that somewhere even a little beyond 3ml in 1000ml you will start to see some signs of failure but only experimentation will tell. We need to push the boundaries to learn and satisfy that insatiable human urge that begins with "What if....?

You can spend time justifying your position but unless you enjoy doing so, then that, I feel, will be wasted time.

My record is stuck at the line: "give it a go, tell us and show us your results" Whatever they are, I for one will welcome them in the spirit of "wanting to know"

pentaxuser

tomfrh · Jul 24, 2017

pentaxuser said:
I empathise with your curiosity as I have tried to indicate. I

Thanks!

As well as satisfying my curiosity I actually think the behaviour and limits of rodinal stand development is useful practical information too.

I ruined my first rolls of stand developed film after following "the rules" of 5ml per roll, and no thinner than 1:100. I've spoken with several people who experienced similar results after following the standard recommendations.

Eventually I learned that 3ml is right assuming you let it exhaust, and that concentration is largely incidental up to 1:333. Beyond that - who knows! But I'd like to know. Its good to know when a process fails, for both practical reasons, and for curiosity's sake.

Ill try some super diluted mixes and see what happens.

faberryman · Jul 24, 2017

tomfrh said:
I ruined my first rolls of stand developed film after following "the rules" of 5ml per roll, and no thinner than 1:100. I've spoken with several people who experienced similar results. Eventually I learned that 3ml is right, and that concentration is largely incidental up to 1:333.

How were your films ruined with stand development at 5ml per roll at 1:50 or 1:100 dilution?

tomfrh · Jul 24, 2017

faberryman said:
How were your films ruined with stand development at 5ml per roll at 1:50 or 1:100 dilution?

They came out very overdeveloped.

I haven't quite got my head around why some people have success with 5ml/1:100 and others like me experience failure.

A few possibilities I can think of

-Some brands are stronger than others
-temperature
-time (i leave for a few hours, others leave for an hour or so, at which point the rodinal may not have exhausted)

MattKing · Jul 24, 2017

Whenever you are dealing with developer exhaustion, you need to remember that the amount of exhaustion will vary considerably with the subject(s) of the photograph(s). A roll of high key subjects will exhaust the developer much more quickly than a roll filled with shadows.

Rodinal Stand Development: Maximum possible dilution using 3ml rodinal?

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