Rodinal Question

moltogordo · Mar 8, 2015

I've almost always used Rodinal at 1:50, probably because I'm cheap. The times for developing at this dilution are also about the same as my other favorite, HC110 at 1:63. So I'm also lazy.

Just curious - does a dilution of say, 1:12 or 1:25 increase or decrease visible grain?

Trask · Mar 8, 2015

My understanding is that, in theory, the more the developer is concentrated (e.g. 1:25 being more concentrated than 1:50) the more you may see more visible grain. Higher dilutions lead to longer development times, some degree of compensation (depending on agitation regime) and perhaps less visible grain. I would hesitate to say that this holds true for all developers.

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2015

With Rodinal dilution is better used to control contrast. I always found 1:25 too contrasty and opted for 2:75 that gave me negatives (average lighting conditions) that had a tonal range that suits my printing and are also easy to print. I used 1:25 when I needed to boost contrast and 1:50 for contrast reduction.

Processing too concentrated won't help achieve the finest grain.

Ian

gone · Mar 8, 2015

I'm lazy too, so mine gets 1:25 no matter what format because I don't like long developing times. It's also why my Mic-X and D76 get used full strength.

Grain is not visible in medium format, very nice and controlled in 35mm. My findings are that the grain gets outta hand if the temps are off, if there's too much developing agitation (mine gets very minimal agitation), or if the exposures are off. You can clearly see on one roll that the shots that have the exposures nailed have minimal grain, while the badly exposed shots have grain issues.

As Trask mentioned, dilutions do have a large effect on other developers. My full strength Mic-X negs are almost grainless, and I always use D76, or it's clones, full strength, not only for the shorter times, but for the better tonality. You get sharper images diluted, but you also get some grain that I don't care for (unlike the Rodinal grain that I do like very much).

fotch · Mar 8, 2015

momus said:
................(unlike the Rodinal grain that I do like very much).

Question: I never used Rodinal so don't know but is there really a difference in grain? Other than size?

Ian Grant · Mar 8, 2015

fotch said:
Question: I never used Rodinal so don't know but is there really a difference in grain? Other than size?

Depends how you use Rodinal and what films, with Tmax100 and APX 100 I always got finer grain and sharper negatives than if I'd used ID-11/D76, that's all format 35mm to LF.

Get everything optimised, choice of dilution, effective film speed,dev time, tight temperature control including washing and you'd see just how good a developer it is.

Ian

frank · Mar 8, 2015

I am very lazy, so what I do is this:

400 speed film (35 or 120) gets dev'd in HC-110, 1:100, stand dev. 1 hr.
100 " " " " " Rodinal " " "

(Did you see what I did there?)

Gerald C Koch · Mar 8, 2015

Routinely use both Rodinal and HC-110 at 1+49 dilution. Never had a problem with the results.

Dr Croubie · Mar 8, 2015

fotch said:
Question: I never used Rodinal so don't know but is there really a difference in grain? Other than size?

There are two main types of developer, solvent and non-solvent.
If I've got the names around the correct way (correct me if I'm wrong), Xtol etc are solvent, it dissolves the edges of the grains, makes them a) smaller and b) rounder.
Rodinal etc are non-solvent, the grains are a) larger and b) sharper.

baachitraka · Mar 9, 2015

For Tri-X @200, @20°C constant agitation for a minute and then three inversions every minute.

My times are,
1+25 => 7:00 mins
2+75(1+37.5) => 9:30 mins. I don't get muddy faces:alien: when using this dilution.

1+50 => 12:00 mins

I don't believe in stand or semi-stand though it works very well for me.

Regarding grain: When I view the print up close, yeah I can see some grain but at certain distance it is almost invisible.

Ian Grant · Mar 9, 2015

Dr Croubie said:
There are two main types of developer, solvent and non-solvent.
If I've got the names around the correct way (correct me if I'm wrong), Xtol etc are solvent, it dissolves the edges of the grains, makes them a) smaller and b) rounder.
Rodinal etc are non-solvent, the grains are a) larger and b) sharper.

I always got very similar grain structure with Xtol and Rodinal and both gave finer grain and better fine detail compared to the somewhat mushy grain of D76/ID-11.

Ian

Athiril · Mar 9, 2015

I always get a significant difference, unless I'm using something particularly fine grained like Retro 80S.

Lamar · Mar 10, 2015

That's exactly the same results I get. I have been using Rodinal for stand / semi-stand and 100 speed film. I have just started using LegacyPro L-110 (HC-110) as well. It seems to lie in the middle. XTOL produces less grain than any of the others I've used but to me some grain is ok and it adds a bit of perceive sharpness. I just tried semi-stand with the LegacyPro L-110 at 1:119 though and am not thrilled with the results. Rodinal 1:100 seemed to produce less grainy results with Tri-X at EI 1600, not what I was expecting. More tests to come.

Athiril said:
I always get a significant difference, unless I'm using something particularly fine grained like Retro 80S.

Dr Croubie · Mar 10, 2015

Athiril said:
I always get a significant difference, unless I'm using something particularly fine grained like Retro 80S.

I must be getting old, my tastes are changing.
Even a year ago I would have gone for the Xtol, less grain, yay!
But now, I dunno, I like the Rodinal one better. That edge is damn sharp. I don't care if you can see the grain in the highlights. Moar Sharp!

Athiril · Mar 10, 2015

For the record, thats not an detailed in focus area, actual details appear about the same I've found on most films at 1+25 and Xtol Replenished, but I've been able to make them both sharper, and Rodinal a bit finer at the same time.

Also I found, at least with FP4+, that 1+100 1 hour stand is less detailed than 1+25 and Xtol.

Xmas · Mar 10, 2015

moltogordo said:
I've almost always used Rodinal at 1:50, probably because I'm cheap. The times for developing at this dilution are also about the same as my other favorite, HC110 at 1:63. So I'm also lazy.

Just curious - does a dilution of say, 1:12 or 1:25 increase or decrease visible grain?

I'm lazy too Ive only done one comparison Microphen stock v Rodinal 1:100 stand, no significant detectable difference, in toe speed, burnt high lights etc. etc. grain might be more or less but that is a subjective call and varies with the subject, note I only bother with 8x10s from 35mm, sometimes cropping.

The grain sometimes looks good/better to me, but YMMV.

Truzi · Mar 10, 2015

Thanx for posting the image. For all the reading I've done here about finer grain versus perceived sharpness, that picture really illustrates it well for me.

Lamar · Mar 13, 2015

For grins I did side by side comparison like Athiril did. This screen cap shows a frame from three different rolls of 135 Tri-X 400 shot at EI 1600 and developed using the following methods, left to right: L-110 1:119 Semi Stand for 1.5 hours, Rodinal 1:100 Semi-Stand for 2 hours, and XTOL full strength with a by the tech pub 2 stop push. Each frame is showing a 100% view of a 4000 dpi scan. Each frame was scanned using VueScan with grain reduction set to none and all settings equal. Pay no attention to the files names, I was too lazy to change the output name format in VueScan so they are not indicative of anything.

removedacct1 · Mar 13, 2015

Every film has its own specific traits, and grain structure/size is one of them. Your choice of developer can only modify the inherent grain structure so much, which is to say - not much at all.

rbultman · Mar 14, 2015

Lamar said:
...Rodinal 1:100 Semi-Stand for 2 hours...

What is you semi-stand agitation method?

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Lamar · Mar 15, 2015

The LegacyPro L-110 semi-stand followed Brendan Comey's process posted on Filmdev.org. This was my fist try at using L-110 for any stand work so this was my baseline. I may modify a bit and try again. Perhaps leaving off the pre-soak and going a bit longer.

1 Pre soak for 5 mins at 20C (It was 72F in my kitchen at the time so I used that water temperature as well.)
2 HC-110 dilution G (syrup 1:119) (500ml of solution in a two reel tank. Film on bottom reel)
3 30 seconds initial agitation
4 1 x gentle inversion every 30mins total time 1.5 Hours
5 Water stop: fill and drain 10 times.
6 Kodak Fixer
7 30 min rinse.
8. Photo-Flo (3+1000) for 1.5 minutes.

The Rodinal started off as a 2 hour process that seemed very popular on line. I reduced agitation to once every 40 minutes vs every 30 minutes and only use two gentle swirl agitation.

1. Rodinal 1:100 or 1+100, either way there is not enough difference in concentration with this method to worry with. Room temp. (500ml of solution in a two reel tank. Film on bottom reel)
2. Initial agitation - 1 minute of slow inversions.
3. Two gentle swirls at 40 minutes and again at 80 minutes.
5 Water stop: fill and drain 10 times.
6 Kodak Fixer
7 30 min rinse.
8. Photo-Flo (3+1000) for 1.5 minutes.

rbultman said:
What is you semi-stand agitation method?

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