Rodinal fine grain mod

Leigh B · Oct 4, 2016

While I think Rodinal is the greatest developer on earth, it's not known as a "fine grain" developer.

A thread about a different developer suggested adding a small amount of potassium thiocyanate.
That was supposed to produce finer grain than the developer on its own.

Would that work with Rodinal (the real commercial version from 20-30 years ago)?
If so... how much to use in 1:25, 1:50, or 1:100 dilution volumes?

Any problems / potential down-sides to this modification?
One obvious problem is the fact that the Rodinal formula of that era was never published.

TiA.

- Leigh

sedwards · Oct 4, 2016

Never tried thiocyanate, but I've added 80g/L of sodium sulfite to 1:100 rodinal. I used the 1:50 times as a starting point.

Leigh B · Oct 4, 2016

sedwards said:
Never tried thiocyanate, but I've added 80g/L of sodium sulfite to 1:100 rodinal.
I used the 1:50 times as a starting point.

Thanks very much sedwards.

I'll add that to the option list.

- Leigh

Gerald C Koch · Oct 4, 2016

Potassium thiocyanate can also produce fog. At one time some Rodinal users recommended using the developer diluted with 99 parts of a 7.5% sodium sulfite solution instead of plain water. An article appeared in Popular Photography (Bill pierce, "Rodinal Rejiggered", 97 (Sept 1966). The activity of the modified developer is somewhat greater so you will have to experiment a bit.

Of course if you want fine grain why not just use a fine grain developer.

Leigh B · Oct 4, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Of course if you want fine grain why not just use a fine grain developer.

Because I'm quite pleased with the performance of Rodinal in all respects.
Just thinking it might be possible to tweak it a bit.

One of its significant advantages is an infinite shelf life.
The only other developer I know of that's as long-lived is Diafine, which I also use.

I've never actually had an issue with grain because I only shoot very slow fine-grained films anyway.

- Leigh

Patrick Robert James · Oct 5, 2016

Don't quote me on this Leigh, but you could try adding Asorbate, but that might change it. Another trick I tried once then forgot about is to add salt. Good ol' NaCl. IIRC I did it once but it was an odd film so I didn't really get any results from it. Might be worth a second go. I think I added 50g/l. I don't remember why though. Maybe someone will chime in.

I love Rodinal too. If I were to hazard a guess I would say that more than half the film I have developed in my life has gone through Rodinal. I use my own home mixed stuff these days based off of Gainer's EZ Rodinal. It is Sodium based instead of Potassium based, but it works the same.

baachitraka · Oct 5, 2016

PC-TEA. If it is fine grain then its not Rodinal anymore. Please leave it alone...

Ian Grant · Oct 5, 2016

Rodinal produces exceptionally fine grain with the right choice of film. That would be the original Agfa AP/APX100 & 25 or Tmax 100. probably Delta 100 as well. Because Rodinal contains free Hydroxide it can soften emulsions slightly tight teperature contro; throughout the process cycle including washing is important to get the best results.

Ian

Leigh B · Oct 5, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Rodinal produces exceptionally fine grain with the right choice of film.
That would be the original Agfa AP/APX100 & 25 or Tmax 100. probably Delta 100 as well.

Hi Ian,

My standard film when it was available was AgfaPan 25.
When it went out of production I bought all I could find in the USA. I still have an unopened case of it.

More recently I've been shooting Fuji ACROS. It's a marvelous 100-speed film, resolving 100 lp/mm.
I do Ilford FP4+ in 5x7 and 8x10 because ACROS isn't available in those sizes. I shoot it at 100 just like ACROS.

I don't shoot any film rated above 100.

As one might expect, grain is not an issue with those films.
I'm just constantly looking at ways to improve the process, even if only slightly.

Thanks.

- Leigh

RalphLambrecht · Oct 5, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Potassium thiocyanate can also produce fog. At one time some Rodinal users recommended using the developer diluted with 99 parts of a 7.5% sodium sulfite solution instead of plain water. An article appeared in Popular Photography (Bill pierce, "Rodinal Rejiggered", 97 (Sept 1966). The activity of the modified developer is somewhat greater so you will have to experiment a bit.

Of course if you want fine grain why not just use a fine grain developer.

too easy.could also use D76 and get the best compromise in speed grain and shadow detail. or HC110?

darkroommike · Oct 5, 2016

Bill Pierce used to make up Rodinal with sodium sulfite solution for Tri-X and Gainer published some trials using either sodium ascorbate or ascorbicv acid. Gainer's conclusion was that ascorbate was much more effective. There is a thread about it on APUG so you could search Rodinal and Sodium Sulfite in Petersen's Photographic.

Lachlan Young · Oct 5, 2016

Leigh B said:
While I think Rodinal is the greatest developer on earth, it's not known as a "fine grain" developer.

Rodinal is not a belief, it's a very competent, long lived developer that gets routinely misused as some kind of holy water.

In my experience with Rodinal, you'll only get coarse grain if you treat the developing tank like a cocktail shaker, or intentionally mess about with exposure & development to accentuate grain (you can do similar things with D-76 & ID-11). It produces perfectly competent, fine, sharp, grain with today's films. More to the point, Agfa's suggested times are aimed at quite a high CI - 0.65 or thereabouts. I'd bet that knocking 20% off the time & altering your exposure appropriately would achieve far more than playing about with thiocyanates, which can be left in the reversal processes' first bath, where they belong.

If you're shooting Acros, I've always had excellent results with ID-11 1+1 - no visible grain, even at significant enlargement from 120. I have made scans on high end equipment that are similarly clean. Dilute Perceptol is pretty good too, if you are really that worried about grain. The Acros data sheet has good documentation of its behaviour in D-76/ ID-11. .

Leigh B said:
Would that work with Rodinal (the real commercial version from 20-30 years ago)?
If so... how much to use in 1:25, 1:50, or 1:100 dilution volumes?

The current Adox Adonal is Agfa Rodinal made to the 2004 recipe. I recall reading that the West German Rodinal changed to KOH from NaOH in the immediate post-WW2 period, but I could be wrong. Other than that, no significant changes have occurred, & certainly none of any significance in the last few decades.

John Wiegerink · Oct 5, 2016

Acros 100 is a great film and it will do well in many different developers also. I have only used it in 120. The best negatives I have had from Acros 100(80) came to me in Rodinal 1:100 one hour semi-stand. Very bright, overcast day, but the blacks/deep shadows and highlights were perfect and I could fine "NO" grain in a cropped 16x20 print of a 6x6 Rollei negative. When I saw the print I only utter two words. %&#* stunning! Great film-great developer! Oh, I can't see who you would even need potassium thiocyanate with this combo. At least in 120 film size anyway.

piu58 · Oct 6, 2016

I use Rodinal for decades. It is a fine developper and gives fine but sharp grain if used adequate:
- Don't over-develop
- Dilute it with cool water. I use 16°C, other use 18°C. The listed times have to be streched by 1.13 for every degree Celsius.

Murray Kelly · Oct 10, 2016

As a quick experiment you can try adding 1g/l of K thiocyanate to the water you dilute the Rodinal with. SPUR use it a lot in their developers intended for contrasty slow film. If the results don't please you you can stop the experiment. Spur developers usually work best as stand developers.

Leigh B · Oct 10, 2016

Thanks very much, guys. I certainly appreciate all the information.

- Leigh

Alan Johnson · Oct 10, 2016

Extra exposure is recommended when thiocyanate is added, see post 6:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

RichardJack · Oct 10, 2016

IMO once you add anything to Rodinal it's just not Rodinal anymore and it's character is changed. Why not simply use another fine grain developer that has a proven track record?
I like ilford perceptol and still have plenty of unopened Microdol packages.
just my two cents.

Leigh B · Oct 10, 2016

RichardJack said:
Why not simply use another fine grain developer that has a proven track record?

Because...
1) I've used Rodinal for decades. I'm familiar with it, and know how it works with the films I use.
2) I have several liters of it, enough to last far longer than I will.
3) Its infinite shelf life means all that stock will remain good forever. Not true of other developers.

I'm quite pleased with Rodinal. Just wondering if there are any "tweaks" available.

No, I'm not considering any other developer. Thanks.

- Leigh

Gerald C Koch · Oct 10, 2016

A point to consider is that potassium thiocyanate is VERY deliquescent. So much so that the crystalline form absorbs enough moisture to at least partially dissolve. This makes weighing inaccurate. The amount of thiocyanate used in a developer is critical. Using either sodium sulfite or sodium chloride does work to decrease the grain produced. My advice would be to forget the thiocyanate.

Leigh B · Oct 10, 2016

Thanks Gerald. Good info. (I had to look up 'deliquescent' )

- Leigh

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2016

Leigh B said:
Thanks Gerald. Good info. (I had to look up 'deliquescent' )

- Leigh

I was about to look it up when I remembered that Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers sang about juvenile deliquescents.

That took me back a few years

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Oct 10, 2016

To get around the problem Kodak supplied potassium thiocyanate as a 50% solution for use by commercial photo processors.

pdeeh · Oct 10, 2016

Because...
1) I've used Rodinal for decades. I'm familiar with it, and
know how it works with the films I use.

the first thing that happens when you add something to a developer that you know well is that it immediately stops being the developer you know well.

John Wiegerink · Oct 10, 2016

pdeeh said:
the first thing that happens when you add something to a developer that you know well is that it immediately stops being the developer you know well.

Excellent! +2

Rodinal fine grain mod

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