Rodinal failure?

n00b · Jun 9, 2011

Greetings!
I am a long time n00b, lurking, first time post. I have been developing films in Rodinal with stand development and never had a problem before. Now I moved and had twice now film coming blank out of my AP tanks.
It was one batch of 2x Kodak p3200 and 1 batch of APX 100 + Tura 100 (all 35 mm).
I put in the Rodinal 1+100 (= 6,5 ml Rodinal in 643,5 ml distilled water) and semi-standed for 1 hour, then water stop, fix with fresh fixer (I'm paranoid and throw it out very soon, using Rollei RXA at 1+4) and Ilford wash method, then washing aid (AGFA).
In both instances I did everything like always (have processed about 30 rolls like that without problems) abd the films were blank! No markings, nothing.
Could it be that the AP tanks still were contaminated with fix from the development the day before? I have 3 AP tanks and develop in them in parallel, I can't say if it was the same tank.
How do you rinse your tanks?
I rinse thoroughly under running tap water. Should I use soap? Should I scrub? Sorry about the n00b questions, but I lost important images on those 4 films

mablo · Jun 9, 2011

Blank frames mean no exposure to the light. The first thing I'd check out would be the camera.

Роберт · Jun 9, 2011

Yes, 1+100 but you have to use 10ml concentrate for each 135-36 film according Agfa. In practice 5-6ml is a real minimum. Under this amount you can depend on the amount B&W area on the negatives.

However very strange that not even markers are visible on the film. So you had a complete failure of the developer or.... you made the wrong sequence in development.

If you have rinsed your tanks under tap water thoroughly, it should be enough. So what rests is a very contaminated tank or a wrong developing sequence (fixer first).
Other options are IMO not possible with Rodinal / R09 one shot.

Sorry about the lost films. I am using Rodinal for over 40 years and I can only say I never had any failure due to bad Rodinal.

trexx · Jun 9, 2011

Do a clip test. Do this in the light. Mix 1ml of rodinol & 100ml water place a drop on the leader of some film. Every fifteen minutes for an hour and a half add a drop somewhere else on the film. Wait fifteen minutes from the last drop rinse and fix. You should see varying amounts of development.

One other thing was there film information on the edges?

BetterSense · Jun 9, 2011

If the markings are not there, then it can't just be the camera; it must be the developer. I have never heard of Rodinal going bad before, and I don't think that a small amount of leftover fixer could cause such radical problems--you can develop films in monobaths afterall.

Rick A · Jun 9, 2011

No edge markings would mean developer problem, these are imprinted at the factory. Sounds like a clip test is in order. Are you sure you didn't fix first by mistake?

Leigh B · Jun 9, 2011

mablo said:
Blank frames mean no exposure to the light. The first thing I'd check out would be the camera.

Nope.

Blank film with no edge markings indicates a processing problem.

It has nothing to do with the camera.

The film was not developed before it was fixed, possibly because the fixer was poured in first, or the developer wasn't mixed, or the process used plain water rather than developer, or ???.

- Leigh

n00b · Jun 9, 2011

Thank you very much for your replies.
As there were no edge markings, I too think that the processing is at fault.
The first time this happened I had used tap water. I read somewhere (flickr) of Rodinal failure due to hard tap water hence the thread name.
I used the same Rodinal (opened last year) afterwards at 1+25 and also 1+100 without problems. I am 100% certain I did not forget to add the developer, because I remember it splashing when added to the water and my thinking about Rodinal into water macro photography.
The second time this happened I used distilled water. I did three batches in parallel. The other films in the other two tanks turned out fine. Again, I remember adding the developer because I was frustrated at having to draw the developer straight out of the bottle with my syringe as my needle was clogged from dried up old Rodinal.
I really cannot explain how it could happen, hence I turn to you.
Especially the second time I cannot have used fixer first, because I redeposited the fixer solution into its bottle to use in the other tanks and the other films fixed fine (I one-shot Rodinal).

railwayman3 · Jun 9, 2011

If there is no trace of any image or edge markings, it does sound as though you could have, somehow, missed adding the Rodinal, however unlikely that seems?

Even a wrong dilution, oxidised developer or the effect of hard tap water on the developer usually still produces some sort of faint image.

Or mixing of the solutions developer/stop/fix....I've done it myself!

degruyl · Jun 9, 2011

It sure sounds like you fixed it first. Which is the same as leaving the rodinal out of the developer solution.

Full strength Rodinal does oxidize, but it is very slow to do that.

Rick A · Jun 9, 2011

n00b said:
I remember adding the developer because I was frustrated at having to draw the developer straight out of the bottle with my syringe as my needle was clogged from dried up old Rodinal.

You really need to clean your gear every time you use it, cuts down on frustration and makes for pleasurable work.

R gould · Jun 9, 2011

As I have used Rodinal for many years, and it simply never goes off, Film has been developed in Rodinal from opened bottles over 30 years old, you must have either fixed the film before developing it or tried to develop it in water with no Rodinal, The only time I would throw away Rodinal is if it gets so thick you need a spoon to get it out of the bottle.
Richard

Nicholas Lindan · Jun 9, 2011

Another possibility would be the Rodinal wasn't mixed into distilled water but something else. I have had Rodinal fail completely at 1:100 in Cleveland tap water - Cleveland water is very soft but has quite a bit of crud in it as it comes from Lake Erie, the crud content changing with the season and state of the algae bloom.

Arvee · Jun 9, 2011

Best advice: do the clip/leader test and let us know what you found.

wogster · Jun 9, 2011

n00b said:
Thank you very much for your replies.
As there were no edge markings, I too think that the processing is at fault.
The first time this happened I had used tap water. I read somewhere (flickr) of Rodinal failure due to hard tap water hence the thread name.
I used the same Rodinal (opened last year) afterwards at 1+25 and also 1+100 without problems. I am 100% certain I did not forget to add the developer, because I remember it splashing when added to the water and my thinking about Rodinal into water macro photography.
The second time this happened I used distilled water. I did three batches in parallel. The other films in the other two tanks turned out fine. Again, I remember adding the developer because I was frustrated at having to draw the developer straight out of the bottle with my syringe as my needle was clogged from dried up old Rodinal.
I really cannot explain how it could happen, hence I turn to you.
Especially the second time I cannot have used fixer first, because I redeposited the fixer solution into its bottle to use in the other tanks and the other films fixed fine (I one-shot Rodinal).

So you used the same chemicals on another roll after and it worked fine? Sounds like you fixed it first, if I had a nickle for every darkroom operator who did that at least once, I would be a very rich man.....

1) Colour code EVERYTHING, lots of people have 3 beakers and they all look the same, get some of that electrical tape that is different colours, use Green for film developer, blue for paper developer, yellow for stop and red for fixer, you mark trays, bottles, beakers, everything, even print tongs follow the colour code.

2) You need to keep EVERYTHING clean, a good dish detergent at low dilution, about 1/10 what you would use for dishes, would be a good way to do this, use lots of water and the smell test (sniff the tank to make sure there is no soap smell left) to make sure there is no detergent left.

3) Get into the habit of using the same order for chemicals, I always put the developer on the left, then stop, then fix, whether film or paper processing, the left bottle, beaker or tray was the developer. This allowed me to work left to right, left to right feels natural to me, although if you prefer right to left, that can work too, just be consistent.

4) Never process important rolls together, if something goes wrong, it's better to lose one roll, then all the rolls.

5) If a film processing session goes bad, dump the working solutions and mix fresh from concentrate, if your not sure what went wrong.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 9, 2011

Wogster,

Your suggestions are very wise. I don't know why people don't label things and instead rely on their memory. Yet not a month seems to go by without a similar post. The poster usually blames the problem on everything but personal error

Rick A · Jun 9, 2011

My chems are are all in different shaped bottles, labled clearly, and when I decant into measeres, they are labeled and aranged developer in front followed by stop, fix, and first wash to the rear. After that I open the tank and finish washing.

Роберт · Jun 10, 2011

http://shop.fotohuisrovo.nl/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=244

Best way to prevent any mistakes.

n00b · Jun 16, 2011

Thank you all for your helpful input!

Gerald C Koch said:
Wogster,

Your suggestions are very wise. I don't know why people don't label things and instead rely on their memory. Yet not a month seems to go by without a similar post. The poster usually blames the problem on everything but personal error

Actually, I am a medical technical assistant with over a decade laboratory experience.
I am aware I may make mistakes sometimes, errare humanum est. However, in such a setting it IS highly unlikely I did something like forgetting to add a reagent, as I perform much more complex laboratory tasks daily and this hasn't happened to me in like 9 years. Had I thought it was personal failure I would not have opened a thread here. Do not judge me by my handle. Your comment is simply rude.
I was in search of known systematic errors that can render such faulty results.
I have a dedicated darkroom with dedicated beakers and bottles for all chemicals that are clearly labeled.
I have since stand developed more films using the same chemicals and even tap water and everything was fine. I still cannot find the random error that caused the development failure.
Thanks for your input, again.

Rick A · Jun 16, 2011

I have over 45 years of darkroom experience, and I still make simple mistakes. Last week I mixed Rodinal at half strength, Don't know why I did that, I just did. A couple of years back I poured fixer into my D-76 stock bottle, killing my developer. Life happens, accept that errors are made, for whatever reason. By your own admission, you leave your equiptment dirty, (I was frustrated at having to draw the developer straight out of the bottle with my syringe as my needle was clogged from dried up old Rodinal.)so anything could happen. Accept the fact you most likely fixed first, or outright did not add developer. The only other explanation would be unexposed film. My daughter pulled that trick earlier this week, loaded her camera and failed to double check to make sure film was advancing. My suggestion is to redouble your effort to check and insure every step is done properly.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 16, 2011

The only developer that can become completely inactive in a short period of time is Xtol. The OP would be valid in this case. However, others like Rodinal will loss activity slowly but still produce some image or edge numbering. The fact that the film was completely blank leads to only one logical conclusion. The film was never placed in the developer before fixing. Even unexposed film will show some edge markings. Take heart in the fact that most photographers have made this mistake at one time. My criticism involved blaming the developer without considering other possibilities. It was also directed at other posters who have blamed the water supply, and many other things and not human error.

As stated by others a clip test was in order.

BTW, a small amount of fixer contamination from improper cleaning would result in some fog being produced and not the total absence of any images.

railwayman3 · Jun 16, 2011

@nOOb - I don't think that Geralds comment was intended to be rude. We can all be totally systematic in our work, but a moment's distraction can easily cause a mistake....particularly in familiar and repetitive activities, such as routine development of films. We've all done it, and have to accept it.

@RickA - as you say, unexposed film is blank, but, even then, edge markings would show after processing. And, reverting to inexplicable mistakes, how many of us will admit to having sent an unexposed Kodachrome film away to Kodak for processing, while reloaded the exposed cassette into the camera. I have! (only once....)

Leigh B · Jun 17, 2011

n00b said:
Your comment is simply rude.

It wasn't rude... it was honest.

The only thing that can cause completely blank film is fixing the film before it's developed.

That's just one of those laws of chemistry. Nothing you or anyone else can do to change it.

As to how or why it happened... that's a separate question.

But it DID happen.

It can happen to anybody, and has. Don't get defensive about it.

- Leigh

wogster · Jun 17, 2011

n00b said:
Thank you all for your helpful input!

Actually, I am a medical technical assistant with over a decade laboratory experience.
I am aware I may make mistakes sometimes, errare humanum est. However, in such a setting it IS highly unlikely I did something like forgetting to add a reagent, as I perform much more complex laboratory tasks daily and this hasn't happened to me in like 9 years. Had I thought it was personal failure I would not have opened a thread here. Do not judge me by my handle. Your comment is simply rude.
I was in search of known systematic errors that can render such faulty results.
I have a dedicated darkroom with dedicated beakers and bottles for all chemicals that are clearly labeled.
I have since stand developed more films using the same chemicals and even tap water and everything was fine. I still cannot find the random error that caused the development failure.
Thanks for your input, again.

There are no random errors in chemistry.

A completely blank film, that's easy to figure out, it never got developed at all. That comes down to one of three things:

1) you either missed putting in the developer concentrate,
2) the developer was mixed then not used within a reasonable amount of time and not stored properly, so it died before you used it.
3) you fixed it first.

Let me explain the second one, while Rodinal concentrate is infamous for it's long life span, measured in decades in some cases. The working solution life span is very short, IIRC it can be dead in as little as 12 hours.

Rodinal failure?

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