Robinson Crusoe needs to fix film...

szazs · Jan 7, 2006

I have read with much pleasure about using all kinds of wonderful things to develop film, coffee, oak bark, swamp water, and can understand the thinking behind most choices...I think. My question: What about the fixer? I understand salt water could be used, IF you have a lot of time and aren't worried about the images lasting forever. Is there a, say, supermarket/hardware store/health food store/drug store alternative to sodium thiosulfate from a chemical supplier? Thanks folks, in advance.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 7, 2006

No good substitute for Sodium Thiosulfate except Ammonium Thiosulfate.

Sodium Thiosulfate is generally available at swimming pool supply stores.

Ammonium Thiosulfate is available (in large quantities) from agricultural supply stores.

Neal · Jan 7, 2006

Dear szazs,

Check out http://shutterbug.com/techniques/film_processing/0903sb_coffee/

Neal Wydra

Ole · Jan 7, 2006

szazs said:
My question: What about the fixer? I understand salt water could be used, IF you have a lot of time and aren't worried about the images lasting forever. Is there a, say, supermarket/hardware store/health food store/drug store alternative to sodium thiosulfate from a chemical supplier? Thanks folks, in advance.

I would have thought Robinson Crusoe would have access to very large quantities of seawater for a long time, but very limited access to supermarkets and other shops?

Seawater will work. But it will work very slowly - think "two weeks in the fix". The good side is that the wash afterwards can be very brief.

htmlguru4242 · Jan 7, 2006

I've heard that ordinary household ammonia can be used fox fixing film, though I've never tried it.

And what's this about oak bark being able to develop film?

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 7, 2006

Gallic acid is extracted from oak galls, and when heated becomes pyrogallol.

Don't forget Tylenol.

dancqu · Jan 7, 2006

szazs said:
Is there an, ... alternative to ... thiosulfate

For all practical and safety reasons there is NO,
ZERO, alternative to thiosulfate. One hundred and
fifty years ago this year thiosulfate and silver halides
came together and the modern era of photography
was born.

And not just any thiosulfate. Only the ammonium and
sodium will do. Those two forms do form soluble complexes
with silver. Dan

Earl Dunbar · Jan 7, 2006

2 weeks in salt water? The emulsion will have slid off the base by then and you'll be truly "fixed"!

Earl

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 7, 2006

Household ammonia - will it work as a Fixer

htmlguru4242 said:
I've heard that ordinary household ammonia can be used fox fixing film, though I've never tried it.

Question: Can household ammonia be used for fixing film?

See: Dead Link Removed

"Short answer, NO. In no uncertain terms."
posted by Ron Mowrey

"Ammonia is both a base and a silver halide solvent.
It can therefore dissolve gelatin and silver. Neat, right? You can do 2 things at one time."

posted by Ron Mowrey

JG Motamedi · Jan 7, 2006

For what ever its worth, the first fixer used by Daguerre was concentrated sea water.

Donald Qualls · Jan 7, 2006

Fox Talbot was using sea water as well on his very early paper negatives/prints, and complained to William Herschel about them darkening with exposure to light -- hence the advent of thiosulfate fixers.

FWIW, wet plate photographers use potassium cyanide as a fixer, but you do NOT want that stuff in a darkroom where it might contact acid stop bath. Sodium thiocyanate will also fix film, though I don't know what its safety record is. Bottom line, sodium thiosulfate will be in use as fixer long after we're back to coating our own paper negatives and developing them in Tylenol, coffee, or oak gall extract.

FWIW, sodium thiosulfate is sold by some pool chemical suppliers as a chlorine reducer, but check what you're getting, because sodium sulfite is also sold for the same purpose, and won't fix film well enough to bother with (think 24-48 hours with multiple changes of solution to barely clear).

rusty71 · Jan 8, 2006

If I recall my photo history correctly, it was the Fixing that was the most difficult chemical to invent/discover. People had been making photographic drawings and impressions for at least 80 years prior to 1839, but of course they faded away in a few days or weeks.

And wasn't it indeed Herschel who discovered that Sodium Thiosulfate had this magical property with Silver halide salts?
So, no easy alternative to fixer....except, fixer!

derevaun · Jan 9, 2006

Not to close the book on fixer, but...what about a restraining agent, e.g. benzotriazole or potassium bromide, from a "household" chemical?

dancqu · Jan 9, 2006

rusty71 said:
And wasn't it indeed Herschel who discovered that
Sodium Thiosulfate had this magical property with
Silver halide salts? So, no easy alternative to
fixer....except, fixer!

Years earlier it had been noted that thiosulfate
did dissolve the silver halides. It was Herschel
who put exposed plates and thiosulfate
together. He may have discovered
it's properties independently. Dan

Donald Qualls · Jan 9, 2006

derevaun said:
Not to close the book on fixer, but...what about a restraining agent, e.g. benzotriazole or potassium bromide, from a "household" chemical?

Iodized table salt is one option -- sodium chloride is a restrainer, albeit a good bit weaker than potassium bromide, and the tiny fraction of sodium iodide in the iodized salt is a very strong restrainer (though I've also read that iodide in very low concentration can enhance the action of some developers).

Another nice kitchen restrainer is plain table sugar -- it was used in the Bath A of a couple Kodak-originated two-bath developers at one time, to prevent excessive development prior to changing baths.

Photo Engineer · Jan 9, 2006

As a source of bromide, Bromoseltzer would work if it was still available. It is / was sodium bromide in tablet form or powder form with some fizzing agents added. Just put in water, let fizz and the remainder is a weakly acid solution of NaBr.

Thiocyanates are good fixing agents, but not readily availalble. It is pretty safe to use, about like hypo for safety in spite of its name. Thiourea is also a good fixing agent but is also hard to get. It is a natural product of many plants, but there are claims that it is a carcinogen. These are not household items AFAIK.

Most thioethers and thiols (sulfur alcohols) are good fixing agents or stabilizers. The easiest one to get (depending on your state of mind here) is the spray that skunks produce. I personally have never tried this and wouldn't encourage it, but there you go.

PE

szazs · Jan 9, 2006

Well, um, This particular Robinson Crusoe IS NOT going to wrangle down skunks! Although the mental image of doing so, and the explaination to follow is a laugh. However, thanks to this astute group, I found out that sodium thiosulfate is sold as a dechlorinator at swimming pool supply houses. Living in Central Florida, we are virtually "swimming" in the stuff, as there is a pool supply on nearly every block...

Donald Qualls · Jan 14, 2006

Photo Engineer said:
Thiourea is also a good fixing agent but is also hard to get. It is a natural product of many plants, but there are claims that it is a carcinogen. These are not household items AFAIK.

I'm surprised at this -- thiourea is used as the redeveloper in sepia toners because it reacts with halides or silver ferricyanide (present after bleaching) to produce silver sulfide. That would be a Bad Thing if you're trying to fix your film...

eli griggs · Jan 14, 2006

However, thanks to this astute group, I found out that sodium thiosulfate is sold as a dechlorinator at swimming pool supply houses. Living in Central Florida, we are virtually "swimming" in the stuff, as there is a pool supply on nearly every block...

Ok, so what are the brand names to look for and how do I mix/use this for file/paper?

What sort of 'mileage' would you get from, say a liter vs a liter of Kodak rapid fix or Ilford?

Is anyone here using this material for their work now?

Cheers

Claire Senft · Jan 14, 2006

Does Rpbison Crusoe need his film fixed by Friday?

dancqu · Jan 15, 2006

eli griggs said:
Is anyone here using this material for their work now? Cheers

Personally I'd not trust the stuff on my film and prints.
Besides, it's our industry that needs the support. Let the
swimming pool industry sink or swim on it's own. Dan

Donald Qualls · Jan 16, 2006

The point, Dan, is (in theory) to be able to continue our activities after film is gone. It's not all that difficult to make a gelatin emulsion fast enough to expose in camera, like the earliest dry plates of the 1870s, but by the time we need to do that, there likely won't be nicely packaged photo chemicals available (even via Internet) with instructions on how to use them.

I'm confident, however, that I'll be able to develop silver halides as long as I can expose them. The result might not look as good as Fomapan 100 in HC-110, but in large formats it'll look as good as the dry plates of late 19th century -- some of which still look pretty darned good 130 years later...

Robinson Crusoe needs to fix film...

szazs

Tom Hoskinson

Neal

Ole

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htmlguru4242

David A. Goldfarb

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dancqu

Earl Dunbar

Tom Hoskinson

JG Motamedi

Donald Qualls

rusty71

derevaun

dancqu

Donald Qualls

Photo Engineer

szazs

Donald Qualls

eli griggs

Claire Senft

dancqu

Donald Qualls

Robinson Crusoe needs to fix film...

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