Roba Apposta: Two bath reversal process from Italy

adelorenzo · Mar 7, 2019

Link: http://www.brancoottico.fineartlabo.com/roba-apposta-black-and-white-reversal-kit/

Seems interesting. A two bath kit that claims to work for just about any film and paper. I can't seem to dig up much technical info although I can't understand much Italian. I'm guessing one bath is a bleach and one a redeveloper?

I wonder how it would work for lith film. Seems like you can only order direct from Italy.

This has been out for more than six months but I hadn't heard about it until it showed up on Lina Bessanova's channel:

removed account4 · Mar 8, 2019

lina bessonova is great, isn't she ?!
i think the kit is similar to the hyper speed direct reversal galaxy came out with ..
most likely it is bleach(1) clearing bath(2) and fogging developer(3)

hope this takes off ! direct positives, black and white chromes, paper postives, glass positives .. lots of fun
john

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 8, 2019

Ooh.. I could enlarge my small negatives onto paper, reverse, then print as paper negative as a cyanotype..or a kallitype.... or gum... or carbon!!

Lachlan Young · Mar 8, 2019

Having read the instructions & done a little digging into what the likely ingredients are (based on the safety recommendations) - it's essentially a highly active developer without additional solvents - especially because it's reused for post fogging re-development - & an acidified permanganate bleach. You have to provide fixer & a clearing bath if you want (a sulfite or metabisulfite most likely from the safety data). So, in other words, it's pretty standard stuff. The developer may be of slightly different formulation, but there's only so many ways of making those. The main difference is that a stronger bleach dilution is used on the paper.

awty · Mar 8, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Ooh.. I could enlarge my small negatives onto paper, reverse, then print as paper negative as a cyanotype..or a kallitype.... or gum... or carbon!!

So you could create a negative from a negative? That would be handy.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 8, 2019

awty said:
So you could create a negative from a negative? That would be handy.

Yes... then I could print roll film negatives without using a digital negative.

jvo · Mar 10, 2019

adelorenzo said:
Link: http://www.brancoottico.fineartlabo.com/roba-apposta-black-and-white-reversal-kit/

... I can't understand much Italian....

I wonder how it would work for lith film. Seems like you can only order direct from Italy.

the only time i use google chrome is when i need easy translation - and it works well!

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Mar 12, 2019

This is really nothing new. Black and white reversal kits are, or have at least recently, been available from at least Kodak, Tetenal and Foma. The main purpose is to develop b&w film as slides for projection and any b&w film with a clear base is in practice suitable.

I am not convinced that any reversal kit can easily be used to create intermediate negatives (direct negative-negative copies) to use for alternative processes. For most alternative printing processes, we need a negative with a specific contrast and perhaps ideally even a modified gamma curve. It is likely difficult, both with this new and any other reversal kit, to control the resulting contrast when developing film or paper.

And if anyone is into alternative processes and already used to work with basic chemicals, it is really not very difficult to mix reversal baths from scratch or slightly modify existing developers.

mr.datsun · Oct 26, 2019

People in this thread say this kit is nothing new, but I found the Foma kit mentioned underperformed for me when I experimented using it with TriX and Adox Pan Super 8 film. The results were flat and lifeless, lacking contrast.

So, my question is – Will this kit perform differently to the Foma kit? Has anyone here used it? Especially interested in Super 8 results.

koraks · Oct 26, 2019

mr.datsun said:
I found the Foma kit mentioned underperformed for me when I experimented using it with TriX and Adox Pan Super 8 film

The problem with B&W reversal is that exposure and processing need to be tailored to the desired contrast. It's not a single-spec process such as for color films. You can't really blame the chemistry for this; the need for extensive calibration is just inherent to B&W reversal.

Anon Ymous · Oct 26, 2019

koraks said:
The problem with B&W reversal is that exposure and processing need to be tailored to the desired contrast. It's not a single-spec process such as for color films. You can't really blame the chemistry for this; the need for extensive calibration is just inherent to B&W reversal.

Spot on. Given a first developer that he can't change and the fact that @mr.datsun said results were flat, then extended time in first developer would be needed. This in turn may require a change in exposure index for optimal results.

In any case, this kit seems less likely to give better results.

twelvetone12 · Oct 26, 2019

I used this kit and had good results with it. It is cheap compared to the alternatives and it was quite easy for me to source, while the Foma kit is basically impossible to get where I live (and atrociously expensive). I don't get why stuff need to be new, sometimes stuff just needs to be available. And yes, before somebody says it, I could make it myself, but some of the chemicals are even more complex to find where I live than a pre-mixed kit. And more expensive.
This said, you will need to quite some experimentation to get good results, because as others have said, you need to find the right e.i. + first developer time combination. I find experimenting with this fun, but probably I'm just weird.

mr.datsun · Oct 27, 2019

I used to develop Tri-X Super 8 in the Tetenal kit in the 80s. It was just spot on. Superb results out of the box.

I experimented with the Foma kit (yes – exposure and dev times) until I lost the will to live. It needs an aggressive developer like D94 but I cannot remember how much further I got with that developer.

Anyway, this Roba Apposta kit has it's own 2 part developer and I wondered whether it was a more robust developer that might give better results than I got with the Foma?

I'm also asking this because Adox seem to be on the verge of releasing their own reversal kit, which has had a long gestation period, from what i can gather.

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

Hello, just got the kit and I have a question for the people who have used them. The film direction says for (1), the standard dilution is 1 + 1, and that it can be reused with full capacity for up to 15 (or 20 according to the box itself ) rolls of film. There are two (1) bottles.

Does this mean I should mix 1x 250ml of (1) bottle, with 250ml of water, and use it for 8-10 rolls of film, then discard, and dilute the other bottle with water, and use that for the next 8-10 rolls?

Thanks

halfaman · Dec 1, 2022

Am I missing something or the only new thing to claim is that it works with paper (no reason why it should not)? Besides that it is a reversal kit similar to Foma's and Adox's (Lisa has made videos about this one) where first developer is also the second one.

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

OK, I got the answer from their forum, 1+1 means 1 part developer + 1 part water, as expected

Philippe-Georges · Dec 1, 2022

Reversal B&W developing is (was) very interesting for scanning too.

The B&W reversal produces camera originals having a wide tonality (a slowly evolving curve yet not flat), and if well done, a lot of information in the 3/4 tones, good d max, and just a hardly visual point in the whites (thus not 'burned').
That's why these are so good for scanning (and publishing printing) because they hold a lot of information.

And the 'readable' camera original played the role of the 'indisputable reference', not to be sneezed at when discussing with publishers and pre-press+printers...

This process could be delicately 'manipulated', that's why I always shot an A and a B film (interchangeable filmbacks), when the results of the A film wasn't what I desired, I had a second chance by altering the processing of the B film roll. And always two exposures, one for the publisher and one for my backup/archives.

Ideal for B&W photography of sculpture, and other delicate artefacts, above all in (uncontrollable-) natural light, but it is very good in the studio too.

Ilford's Delta100 was my favorite.

Rather complicated to do but adorable when succeeded...

But, alas, 'digitalites' has superseded all this, very sad indeed!

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

halfaman said:
Am I missing something or the only new thing to claim is that it works with paper (no reason why it should not)? Besides that it is a reversal kit similar to Foma's and Adox's (Lisa has made videos about this one) where first developer is also the second one.

The new thing is that it supposes to work with "any" film, and I can purchase it from Italy and have them shipped to US

halfaman · Dec 1, 2022

Richard Man said:
The new thing is that it supposes to work with "any" film, and I can purchase it from Italy and have them shipped to US

Foma and Adox reversal kits "work" with any film. If you like the result or not for each one is another subject. This is a standard reversal process where all steps except FD are done to completion (that is why theoretically no fixer is needed even it is recommended).

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

halfaman said:
Foma and Adox reversal kits "work" with any film. If you like the result or not for each one is another subject. This is a standard reversal process where all steps except FD are done to completion (that is why theoretically no fixer is needed even it is recommended).

I see. Anyway, it works great with HP5+.

The only problem is I forgot the warning at the end, so excited to see the images that I touched the wet emulsion ;-P

Now I need to figure out a way to remove sheet film (both 4x5 and 8x10) from Jobo drum that doesn't damage the emulsion!

halfaman · Dec 1, 2022

Richard Man said:
The only problem is I forgot the warning at the end, so excited to see the images that I touched the wet emulsion ;-P

Now I need to figure out a way to remove sheet film (both 4x5 and 8x10) from Jobo drum that doesn't damage the emulsion!

Permangante bleach softens the emulsion so, yes, you need to be careful manipulating the film until it is dry again. You can try to fill the drum completely with water before trying to remove the sheet, I do it with Jobo paper drums when the sheet stick to the drum wall to avoid dents.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 1, 2022

Be skeptical of any reversal kit that claims to work well for all films. All it means is that you will get a positive at the end of the process but not necessarily a high quality one. In particular, the first developer needs to be tuned for each film and tuning is not just a matter of adjusting development time. Best thing to do, if the kit is your only option, is to shoot a film that is known to work well with the kit. Apparently, HP5+ goes well with RA kit as per the Emulsive interview.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 1, 2022

Philippe-Georges said:
Reversal B&W developing is (was) very interesting for scanning too.

The B&W reversal produces camera originals having a wide tonality (a slowly evolving curve yet not flat), and if well done, a lot of information in the 3/4 tones, good d max, and just a hardly visual point in the whites (thus not 'burned').
That's why these are so good for scanning (and publishing printing) because they hold a lot of information.

And the 'readable' camera original played the role of the 'indisputable reference', not to be sneezed at when discussing with publishers and pre-press+printers...

This process could be delicately 'manipulated', that's why I always shot an A and a B film (interchangeable filmbacks), when the results of the A film wasn't what I desired, I had a second chance by altering the processing of the B film roll. And always two exposures, one for the publisher and one for my backup/archives.

Ideal for B&W photography of sculpture, and other delicate artefacts, above all in (uncontrollable-) natural light, but it is very good in the studio too.

Ilford's Delta100 was my favorite.

Rather complicated to do but adorable when succeeded...

But, alas, 'digitalites' has superseded all this, very sad indeed!

Philippe, you're right - reversal results are very adorable when done well. Especially, medium format and large format slides are quite magical.

I must apologise - I never got a chance to try your method that you kindly shared. But I do have a bulk roll of Delta 100 that I intend to use someday in the future for reversal and I'll give your method a try.

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

Cool. Thanks Raghu and "halfaman" (hobbit? ;-P ) I mainly shoot Tri-X, HP5+, TMAX-100/400, FP4. Nothing weird

I bought 2x Roba kits, so good for up to 40 "rolls". Maybe I will try the other kit that I can purchase from Freestyle next.

Will try 8x10 tomorrow. Woohoo

Richard Man · Dec 1, 2022

Sample image. You can see my grubby fingers' effect on the emulsion. Heh

Roba Apposta: Two bath reversal process from Italy

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Roba Apposta: Two bath reversal process from Italy

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