Rise/shift the same as raising the camera or relying in lens geometry distortion?

Doremus Scudder · Jun 3, 2022

xkaes said:
I'd call a 200mm IC "significantly larger" than 4x5 film. But the IC does NOT necessarily have to be "significantly larger" than 4x5 film. I have two lenses that are "barely" larger than 4x5 film. That's a limitation for shifts & rise/fall -- not so much for swings & tilts. And I have lots of macro lenses with image circles much smaller than 4x5 film -- when focused at infinity, which is NEVER. How bout 12.5mm?

Yeah, you only need a larger image circle than the film if you want to use movements that displace the image circle at the film plane. These include rise/fall, lateral shift and front tilts and swings. Back tilts and swings don't move the center of the film from the optical axis of the lens, so not much coverage is needed for those.

However, if you're photographing in close quarters in cities and stuck with a less-than-ideal camera position due to obstacles and need to use lots of front rise and then some lateral shift to get the framing you want, you'd better have some coverage. Here's a configuration that used all the coverage available from my 135mm Wide-Field Ektar (230mm). Note that I've used all available front rise and then used "point-and-tilt-parallel" to get even more effective rise, plus the shift is also maxed and a bit of point-and-swing used for even more.

I don't always need so much coverage, but when working in cities, the Nikkor 90mm f/8 with its 235mm image circle and the 135mm WF Ektar with its 230mm image circle get used a lot.

Doremus

wiltw · Jun 3, 2022

abruzzi said:
The common terminology obviously long predates me, but in my head I really divide it into two movements--parallel movements and angular movements, then I further subdivide angular movements into front and rear angular movements. The helps my brain compartmentalize them, but I know I need to translate into the common usage when talking to others about it, since my terminology isn't known beyond me, but my thought goes like this:

- parallel movements just allow you to select what part of the image circle you are cropping to. front and rear parallel movements are fully "transitive" (this is really a misuse of this mathmatecal term, but it helps me) in that movement X on the front is identical to movement -X on the rear.

- front angular movements place the plane of focus as well as the zone of apparent focus (i.e. the depth of field) at an oblique angle to the film plane.

- rear angular movement also allow you to place the plane of focus at an oblique angle but also changes the geometry of the image, like converting a rectangle to a trapezoid. Because of the impact on the geometry angular movements are not "transitive".

I understand that in the mechanics of most large format cameras the hardware that enables rise/fall is different from the hardware that enables left/right shift and is probably why the two movements got separate names, but as AgX points out, on 35mm perspective correction lenses, they are usually implemented as a single mechanism--a rail that lets you off-center the lens by a certain amount, and a ring that lets you angle the the "shift" in any direction. To me shift, rise and fall are all the same function and it helps (me) to understand them that way.

I fully understand (and agree) with this explanation! The terms might not be exact to the convention of what a veteran view camera user might call it, but the concepts are described appropriately. Well done.

wiltw · Jun 3, 2022

reddesert said:
Books on large format photography such as Simmons's "Using the View Camera" or Stroebel's "View Camera Techniques" typically have an entire chapter devoted to the effects of front and back movements, with illustrations. In both of these books, the illustrations include photos of a set of children's wood cubes with letters, so that you get a sense of how the movements can shift both perspective and focus.

When you have questions about the effect of movements, I recommend looking at a photo-heavy medium such as one of these books. Words can only do so much. I don't know of a website that has as comprehensive a set of illustrations.

I second consulting and learning from View Camera Technique by Stroebel and also The View Camera by Shaman for the well illustrated effects of each of the movements, to either side of 'centered'

xkaes · Jun 3, 2022

Doremus Scudder said:
Yeah, you only need a larger image circle than the film if you want to use movements that displace the image circle at the film plane.

Doremus

Exactly, and how much more you might need varies for each of us. Some photographers go overboard and get lenses with image circle they will never, ever use.

Maybe because I'm never afraid of cropping, I've never had much of a problem -- if I were to "run out of IC", I'd switch to a wider lens and crop as needed.

AgX · Jun 5, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Raise is up.
Shift is right or left.

Well, I just looked into a british textbook on camera movements I got.

No mention of "shift" at all... instead "cross front" is used.
Instead of "swing" "vertical swing" is used.
Instead of "tilt" the term "rotating" is used.

So terms not only varied by language, but also between countries of same language. And yes, it is most confusing. Thus my engeneering approach above.

Sirius Glass · Jun 5, 2022

Shift is right or left. OR Shift is starboard or port.

AgX · Jun 5, 2022

You Americans... be prepared to look beyond your horizons...

Doremus Scudder · Jun 5, 2022

AgX said:
Well, I just looked into a British textbook on camera movements I got.

No mention of "shift" at all... instead "cross front" is used.
Instead of "swing" "vertical swing" is used.
Instead of "tilt" the term "rotating" is used.

So terms not only varied by language, but also between countries of same language. And yes, it is most confusing. Thus my engineering approach above.

I would tend to think that "vertical swing" is the tilt and that "rotating" would be what I'd call swing.

BTW, what are the German terms for the camera movement? I'm curious.

Doremus

AgX · Jun 5, 2022

Different terms are used...
(in translation)

Linhof
high adjustment
low adjustment
lateral adjustment
tilt

parallel shift (high & low)
lateral shift (left & right)
base tilt
central tilt
swing around vertical axis

Plaubel
parallel adustment (used for all kinds of shift)
swing (used for all kinds of shift)

Doremus Scudder · Jun 6, 2022

AgX said:
Different terms are used...
(in translation)

Linhof
high adjustment
low adjustment
lateral adjustment
tilt

parallel shift (high & low)
lateral shift (left & right)
base tilt
central tilt
swing around vertical axis

Plaubel
parallel adustment (used for all kinds of shift)
swing (used for all kinds of shift)

AgX,

Thanks, but would you mind posting the German. Ich möchte gern die deutschen Begriffe wissen

Danke im Voraus,

Doremus

AgX · Jun 6, 2022

Verstellung, Verschiebung

Neigung

Schwenkung, Verschwenkung

Verstellung is used for shift, but also is a superior term meaning movement in this context. Neigung is obvious, Schwenkung though ambiguous.

Doremus Scudder · Jun 7, 2022

AgX said:
Verstellung, Verschiebung

Neigung

Schwenkung, Verschwenkung

Verstellung is used for shift, but also is a superior term meaning movement in this context. Neigung is obvious, Schwenkung though ambiguous.

Vielen Dank! Alles sehr logisch.

MfG

Doremus

Vaughn · Jun 10, 2022

AgX said:
You Americans... be prepared to look beyond your horizons...

Rise/shift the same as raising the camera or relying in lens geometry distortion?

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