Rinse steps in C-41 development

khh · May 22, 2023

I'm putting together the process steps for developing C-41 film in a Jobo processor, and I can't seem to find good information about when to include rinse steps in the development.

I've gathered the following as the basic steps:
0. Pre-heat/Pre-wet*
1. Develop
2. Stop†
3. Bleach‡
4. Fix‡
5. Rinse
6. Final Rinse/Stabilizer

So far I've just used Tetenal's Colortec kit, which only mentions rinsing as an explicit step at the end before their stabilizer. I have however seen a rinse recommended by some after the stop, but discouraged after development if not using a stop. Tetenal spesifies an optional acetic acid stop, but no rinse. I've also seen some confusion about whether to include a rinse between the bleach and the fix. Obviously, there should not be a rinse between the developer and stop or after the final rinse/stabilizer. So the question is: When do you rinse, and why?

Water used for rinsing should of course be at or close to the process temperature to avoid unwanted reticulation.

* Opinions seem to differ as to whether the drum should be pre-wet for 5 minutes or just pre-heated for the Jobo.
† Stop in seems to be an optional step which can be employed to increase bleach longevity. I've been using a home mixed 2 % acetic acid stop.
‡ Bleach and fix are sometimes combined into a single blix bath.

brbo · May 22, 2023

I've always seen rinse being recommended between bleach and fix (to preserve fix).
I think stop and rinse is required after developer with certain types of bleaches (but those bleaches may not be considered "standard" C-41).

I'd adhere to standard C-41 (preheat, dev, bleach, rinse, fix, rinse, stab) and only deviate if you have problems.

lamerko · May 22, 2023

In my opinion, the stop bath is a mandatory step. Also, in order to protect the bleach, there should be washing before (and after) bleaching. If you use ferricyanide bleach (some kits contain it), the washing step is mandatory. The C-41 process uses high temperature with short development times - skipping the stop bath and washing will not only shorten the life of the bleach, but can also result in color spots.

halfaman · May 22, 2023

You can go directly from the stop bath to the bleach but you need to add a wash between bleach and fix to preserve the fixer, staining may occur otherwise.

I don't reuse C41 chemicals, so I don't wash until fixing is done.

blee1996 · May 22, 2023

I'm using Unicolor/Flic C41 kit, and reusing chemical (I premix 1L working solution, and store them in two 500ML aluminum lined wine bags). Thus I rinse after stop bath, and after bleach.

lamerko · May 22, 2023

Flic uses ferricyanide bleach! It's very intense - you really need a good wash. They also use acetic acid instead of mineral acid, it's safer, but there can still be a problem with the film if the cleaning bath isn't enough.

halfaman · May 23, 2023

lamerko said:
Flic uses ferricyanide bleach! It's very intense - you really need a good wash. They also use acetic acid instead of mineral acid, it's safer, but there can still be a problem with the film if the cleaning bath isn't enough.

With a ferricyanide bleach you need a stop bath between developer and bleach, and a clearing bath of sodium sulfite between bleach and fixer.

PE described the process in the link below.

C41 Bleach: Pot.Ferricyanide Vs. Ammonium Ferric EDTA

Hallo everybody, there are many advantages by working with c41 chemicals when you not use bleach and fixer as one solution. Also named as "Bix" - just like, for example, the tetenal c41 home-kits contains. This is offen discused here on APUG. One can find so many tread as one would like to...

www.photrio.com

Rudeofus · May 23, 2023

khh said:
So far I've just used Tetenal's Colortec kit, which only mentions rinsing as an explicit step at the end before their stabilizer.

If you use Tetenal's Colortec kit, then you have indeed a setup with BLIX and the discussion about rinse between bleach and fixer is moot. There are two potential issues which shape your rinse procedure:

BLIX is near neutral (pH 6.5 to be accurate), and it should stay that way. Therefore whatever you do after color developer step, you should rinse before BLIX
if BLIX gets reused, and you go directly from CD to BLIX, there's a chance that you irreversibly stain you film (search for yellow stains with C-41 and 120 roll film)

Therefore I highly recommend a stop bath right after CD, and then a brief rinse before BLIX to prevent carryover of acidic stop bath.

After BLIX you wash the film thoroughly, and ideally a lot longer than Tetenal's recommendation. I had red sensitizer dye leak out even after 10 minutes of washing!

Finally, the final rinse is really final, there must not be any rinse after this final rinse. Do mix the final rinse with distilled water, thereby you avoid water marks.

khh · May 23, 2023

Rudeofus said:
If you use Tetenal's Colortec kit, then you have indeed a setup with BLIX and the discussion about rinse between bleach and fixer is moot. There are two potential issues which shape your rinse procedure:

BLIX is near neutral (pH 6.5 to be accurate), and it should stay that way. Therefore whatever you do after color developer step, you should rinse before BLIX

if BLIX gets reused, and you go directly from CD to BLIX, there's a chance that you irreversibly stain you film (search for yellow stains with C-41 and 120 roll film)

Therefore I highly recommend a stop bath right after CD, and then a brief rinse before BLIX to prevent carryover of acidic stop bath.

After BLIX you wash the film thoroughly, and ideally a lot longer than Tetenal's recommendation. I had red sensitizer dye leak out even after 10 minutes of washing!

Finally, the final rinse is really final, there must not be any rinse after this final rinse. Do mix the final rinse with distilled water, thereby you avoid water marks.

The discussion on rinsing between bleach and fixer is useful for if I get a different kit in the future, or if someone else stumbles on this thread.

That information about blix pH is new to me, that seems significant. The kits are expensive enough that I'd like to use them roughly to capacity, which does mean reusing the blix, so stop bath and rinse seems like the best idea for this kit then. I'll try the distilled water for the stabilizer bath too, I did get some water marks on the last batch.

mshchem · May 23, 2023

All depends on what chemistry you are using. Obviously in commercial processing there's no rinsing.

Developer, bleach, fixer, final rinse, dry

I use minilab C-41RA chemistry, I pre-wet mostly to warm up the tank/reels&film, then, develop, bleach, fixer, running water wash, final rinse, dry. On Jobo.

RPC · May 23, 2023

Regardless of the chemistry, if the fixer is used one-shot as in a rotary type processor no wash between bleach and fixer is needed, but if the fixer is used in tank type processing and is to be reused, especially up to its rated capacity, then a good wash should be used.

If a commercial processor does not use a wash it is probably due to replenishment of the fixer.

halfaman · May 23, 2023

mshchem said:
Obviously in commercial processing there's no rinsing.

In minilab machines there is no wash but there are squeeze rolls between baths to do minimize the carryover...

RPC · May 23, 2023

That too.

mshchem · May 23, 2023

halfaman said:
In minilab machines there is no wash but there are squeeze rolls between baths to do minimize the carryover...

The Fuji Frontier machines absolutely have squeegees (squeeze rollers) between developer, bleach, fix, fix, followed by 3 stabilizer baths. I always felt like I should wash my film when I had it processed by a lab.

I'm a little nuts

foc · May 24, 2023

mshchem said:
The Fuji Frontier machines absolutely have squeegees (squeeze rollers) between developer, bleach, fix, fix, followed by 3 stabilizer baths. I always felt like I should wash my film when I had it processed by a lab.

I'm a little nuts

Not to be nit picky but Fuji Frontiers are print/RA4 processing machines.

Any mini lab film processor (leader card type), usually develop C41 film in the sequence: developer, bleach, fix, wash(3 tanks) final rinse, dry. The wash is a counterflow so the last wash tank is always clear of carryover.

Each film tank has what is called a cross-over rack. This moves the leader card and film from one tank to another. There is a roller squeegee inside this rack that just touches the film and helps to reduce cross-over between the chemical tanks.

In a properly run lab, these cross-over racks are taken out of the film processor at the end of the day, and put into trays (like print trays) and the tray is filled with water. This cleans the squeegee roller.

The top of the chemical tanks was also washed with a special water bottle and so no chemical will crystalise.

I have negatives that I processed myself in a Fuji film processor, in the early 1990s and they are still perfect.

As with all film processing, home or commercial, good housekeeping is the key.

Rinse steps in C-41 development

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