Right side jitter with Leica IIIC - technical issue or user error?

Kodachromeguy · Apr 16, 2021

Hi Everyone,
I have been exercising my Leica IIIC and noticed that sometimes, the right side of a frame, when I hand-hold at 1/100 sec, has a form of double image or jitter.
1. Tripod-mount slow exposures: no issue at all. See the example of an old car in a junk yard. 1/10 sec, tripod, Jupiter-8 lens.
2. Hand-held at 1/200, looks all right.
3. 1/100 hand-hold: 5 examples on two roll of 75 exposures total. Please see the view of a street in town. The left is fine, but the right has the jitter. The same is with the railroad yard, with the right showing the jitter. (no sharpening on these crops)

Am I mashing the shutter button too hard? Is it possible that as the shutter curtains start moving across the film gate, the camera is still, but when the curtains get to the left (from in back of the camera), I have vibrated the unit?

Thanks for any comments.

cramej · Apr 16, 2021

That's a lens issue, not a shutter issue. A smaller aperture likely hides it just enough that you don't think you see it, but it's still there. The junkyard image, even without a crop, looks a little off on the right. Possibly a decentered element, misaligned barrel, maybe even a bent camera body unless you have another lens to verify the problem doesn't exist across lenses.

Huss · Apr 16, 2021

cramej said:
That's a lens issue, not a shutter issue. A smaller aperture likely hides it just enough that you don't think you see it, but it's still there. The junkyard image, even without a crop, looks a little off on the right. Possibly a decentered element, misaligned barrel, maybe even a bent camera body unless you have another lens to verify the problem doesn't exist across lenses.

Correct, if it was a shutter issue you would see unevenness in exposure.

How are you scanning the film?

Kodachromeguy · Apr 16, 2021

Huss said:
Correct, if it was a shutter issue you would see unevenness in exposure.

How are you scanning the film?

I am scanning with a Plustek 7600i 35mm film scanner using Silverfast Ai to control the process. I will do a test and rescan a couple of the questionable frames.

Dan Fromm · Apr 16, 2021

Shutter bounce? I don't know which direction your camera's shutter curtains go, but if the jitter is at the far end of their travel the second curtain could be bouncing a little.

cramej · Apr 16, 2021

Dan Fromm said:
Shutter bounce? I don't know which direction your camera's shutter curtains go, but if the jitter is at the far end of their travel the second curtain could be bouncing a little.

Does a iiic shutter travel L to R or R to L?

Kodachromeguy · Apr 16, 2021

cramej said:
Does a iiic shutter travel L to R or R to L?

If you are behind the camera body, the shutter is moving from the right side to the left. So the left is the part of the frame where the jitter or double image occurs. This becomes the right side of the negative, as I demonstrated above.

cramej · Apr 17, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
If you are behind the camera body, the shutter is moving from the right side to the left. So the left is the part of the frame where the jitter or double image occurs. This becomes the right side of the negative, as I demonstrated above.

I suppose then that it is possible that the shutter is bouncing as Dan said though it's approaching 1/4 of the frame and would be a pretty hefty bounce. All of my cameras have vertical, leaf or L to R shutters so I wasn't thinking out could be possible.

Wallendo · Apr 17, 2021

I have had good experiences with Soviet m42 lenses, but my experiences with L39 lenses is mixed. I would try another lens if possible. Does your lens feel loose? I have had issues with blurriness on the right side of the image with a bad lens, but it was blur not jitter.

Since you still have to press the shutter button even on a tripod, user error is less likely - if you are pressing to firmly, the entire image would be affected. Getting a camera CLA/repair doubled the price of my IIIc but was worth every penny.

Kodachromeguy · Nov 19, 2021

UPDATE: REPAIRED. Don Goldberg said one shutter curtain had some gummy material on it.
"The issue with the 1/100th speed not working out was due to the 1st shutter curtain, it was very sticky and just was unable to do what it's supposed to do."
Don replaced the curtain and, as part of the process, overhauled the body. Now I have a pristine and smooth IIIC. Feels great!

250swb · Nov 20, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
UPDATE: REPAIRED. Don Goldberg said one shutter curtain had some gummy material on it.
"The issue with the 1/100th speed not working out was due to the 1st shutter curtain, it was very sticky and just was unable to do what it's supposed to do."
Don replaced the curtain and, as part of the process, overhauled the body. Now I have a pristine and smooth IIIC. Feels great!

So what are you going to do about the problem lens? While Jupiter 8's can be very good there is a big variation between them. I suppose you could buy another couple and test each to find the best, bit I suggest maybe a Voigtlander Color Skopar instead.

Kodachromeguy · Nov 20, 2021

250swb said:
So what are you going to do about the problem lens? While Jupiter 8's can be very good there is a big variation between them. I suppose you could buy another couple and test each to find the best, bit I suggest maybe a Voigtlander Color Skopar instead.

Two tests ongoing:

1. I am taking pictures with both my Summitar lens and the Jupiter-8 at different shutter speeds. I have not yet developed the film. On a digital camera, the Jupiter looks fine.
2. I added a thin nylon washer to the film plug on the bottom plate to make sure that the film cartridge stays up where it belongs. I use commercial film cartridges, not the old Leitz ones that you reload yourself. Recall that there has been some discussion about the film in some of the thread mount bodies sagging down to the degree where some of the picture area extends to the sprocket holes. I'm trying to make sure that the film path is straight.

More update later.

gone · Nov 20, 2021

Kodachromeguy said:
On a digital camera, the Jupiter looks fine

Well, then it is. If it were splatz, you would see it. I've never seen a shutter do what your photos are showing, although I once had an M3 that Youxin Yee had serviced right before I bought it, and it had a similar shutter bounce at 1/000. It's photos looked different than yours though.

Since Yee had done the CLA I sent it back to him. He was nice enough to try and fix it a second time for free, but it came back w/ exactly the same problem. So it went off to John at Focal Plane Optics and he did CLA's on it and another camera of mine. He said that the shutter curtain mechanism had been way over tightened. After this experience, I only bought cameras that I could fix myself, or could replace for small money.

250swb · Nov 20, 2021

Comparing with a digital camera you need to test with like-for-like apertures because typically a digital camera will allow you to stop down more because of the ISO flexibility. If it was a shutter problem you'd see it on film with uneven exposure, which your examples don't show, so I'd say it's something happening at certain apertures and because a lens element is off centre.

Right side jitter with Leica IIIC - technical issue or user error?

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