Ridiculous question about small contact prints

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

So, I've been lusting after some Shen Hao cameras for the last few weeks. The 4x5 and 5x7 offerings are within my price range (the 5x7's barely so).

Making enlargements is out of my budget and space constraints; it's just not doable with the amount of expendable income I have at the moment. So, my only option will be contact prints. Specifically, I'd like to do old school processes such as Van Dyke prints, cyanotypes, and the like. The end goal, after learning how to make aesthetically pleasing prints using such processes, is to sell my prints as art. Obviously, I'd consider photography an enjoyable hobby, as I've done in the past, but with the cost of the equipment and supplies, I'd like to make that money back, if possible.

So, from my personal point of view, making 4x5 or 5x7 prints just for my own creative and viewing pleasure is a possibility, and, at the end of the day, my main goal should be creating art that pleases me. But, the more financially responsible part of me wants to create art that can be sold. So, to get to the point, are there (or were there) photographers specializing in smaller prints? I know there must be, but I've been out of the photography game so long that I dont think I could name one without using Google

Edit: if this is in the wrong forum, feel free to publicly chastise me and delete

miha · Sep 6, 2015

Search for Masao Yamamoto.

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

miha said:
Search for Masao Yamamoto.

a quick Google search cave me some great inspiration

I've been up since 3AM in my time zone, and it's almost 7AM now. Whenever I have time to myself to think, which is rare, I think all kinds of silly stuff; this is one of those times. I guess the answer has to come from me. I have a feeling this thread will eventually lead to a bunch of pretentious, philosophical answers.

locutus · Sep 6, 2015

Personally i find 5x4 contact prints just a tad bit too small, 5x7 is the first format i think in which contact prints by themselves look good.

If you can spring the extra for a 5x7 camera i'd recommend it, price wise a entry lens shouldn't cost more then a 5x4 one.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 6, 2015

There are lots of folks making small contact prints. For much of his career, Andre Kertesz was making contact prints from 2 1/4 or smaller negatives.

Personally, I'm a big fan of 5x7 as a contact print size. it's big enough to be able to read from a distance, but small enough to look good in the hand. To make 4x5 contact prints work, you need I think to be more careful about composition so that details don't get lost.

Even better, if you can find a 6.5 x 8.5 camera and a few holders, that whole plate size is about the perfect contact printing size. It's visually almost as big as 8x10, and physically (from a camera perspective) only slightly larger than 5x7. Best of both worlds. It's more square than 5x7 but less square than 8x10. The cameras are generally pretty cheap when they show up, as it's an odd size in today's scheme. The film holders, not so much - because it's an odd size, so they're rare-ish. Not as rare as say 12x15 or other ULF sizes, but still uncommon enough that folks who want them will seek them out.

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

TheFlyingCamera said:
To make 4x5 contact prints work, you need I think to be more careful about composition so that details don't get lost.

Yeah, I can see how composition would be extremely important with prints of that size. I'd assume simple subjects would be the best fit for something like this? All the minute little details in an expansive landscape might be lost on a 4x5 or 5x7 print

nsurit · Sep 6, 2015

Well done small (or large) is not bad. If you plan to eventually get a darkroom, you will find getting a 4X5 enlarger easier and probably cheaper than 5X7. If I were concentrating small contact prints, I'd be sure the presentation was first class and I might figure out a way to make a duplicate negative to protect my original.

Xmas · Sep 6, 2015

A 6x9 cm contact is perfectly presentable...

gone · Sep 6, 2015

Thinking is the problem. Get some sleep and maybe evaulate the concept tomorrow. Don't worry about selling, be concerned about making good images only. That's the real satisfaction. Too many times I see crap that sells like crazy, while good work languishes on the wall. That part is not even valid.

Make some small prints, even if you gave to go the technique-that-shall-not-be-named, send them to a lab, whatever. Then put 'em on the wall and see if that might work for you, but be sure to take a look over the course of at least a week (two is much better), with the prints taken down or covered up when you're not making your critical evaluations. Things will present themselves to you after a while, rather than ideas overlaying the actual work. Don't be surprised if one day you get a really clear message, then the next day flip flop. That's how it works for everyone.

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

Xmas said:
A 6x9 cm contact is perfectly presentable...

That's an option. There's plenty of options for 6x9 MF cameras as well as 2x3 view cameras available on Ebay and other sites. That may be moving in to territory that's too small. I'm sure a competent artist could make wonderful contact prints in that size, but I'm not sure I'm up for the challenge.

So, on the subject of cameras, does anyone have experience with the HZX 4x5 IIA (http://www.badgergraphic.com/openca...duct&product_id=120&search=4x5&category_id=98) or the PTB 4x5 (http://www.badgergraphic.com/openca...t&product_id=2766&search=4x5&category_id=98)?

pdeeh · Sep 6, 2015

You can make prints at whatever size you like ... The emphasis being on what you like. There are no rules.

I've just spent a couple of hours in the sunny back yard making 6x9 cyanotypes. They are, though I say so myself, rather beautiful.

The more 5x4 salt prints I've made, the more I like that size, even though my aim has always been 10x8.

Small prints hide mistakes better too

You might also consider that rather than buy an expensive camera and be "limited" to small contacts, you buy a less expensive camera and spend the rest of your money on darkroom kit.

The possibilities are endless ...

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

momus said:
Thinking is the problem. Get some sleep and maybe evaulate the concept tomorrow. Don't worry about selling, be concerned about making good images only. That's the real satisfaction. Too many times I see crap that sells like crazy, while good work languishes on the wall. That part is not even valid.

Make some small prints, even if you gave to go the technique-that-shall-not-be-named, send them to a lab, whatever. Then put 'em on the wall and see if that might work for you, but be sure to take a look over the course of at least a week (two is much better), with the prints taken down or covered up when you're not making your critical evaluations. Things will present themselves to you after a while, rather than ideas overlaying the actual work. Don't be surprised if one day you get a really clear message, then the next day flip flop. That's how it works for everyone.

you're exactly right. I was bored and philosophical too early in the morning. I have no intention of going out before work and throwing down $1500 or more on gear. And whatever gear I have (which is basically solely the technology we dont speak of ), I can adapt it or adapt to it to get the shot I want.

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

pdeeh said:
You can make prints at whatever size you like ... The emphasis being on what you like. There are no rules.

I've just spent a couple of hours in the sunny back yard making 6x9 cyanotypes. They are, though I say so myself, rather beautiful.

The more 5x4 salt prints I've made, the more I like that size, even though my aim has always been 10x8.

Small prints hide mistakes better too

You might also consider that rather than buy an expensive camera and be "limited" to small contacts, you buy a less expensive camera and spend the rest of your money on darkroom kit.

The possibilities are endless ...

I'd agree on all points. I'm a bit cautious of buying used equipment. I havent had much luck with the site, and I've gotten burned with stuff not being as functional as advertised, but if the seller is well respected on photography communities, I might give that a go again. I might pick up a smaller, less expensive camera when I'm ready to throw down the cash on such an endeavor. Until then, I'll be shopping around

Ko.Fe. · Sep 6, 2015

Even 4x5 enlargers are next to free comparing to new 5x7 camera. For 4x5 you'll need vertical space above of regular countertop, then enlarger not in use, the board could be used for anything else. Or it could be wall mounted and no board.
Are you about hobby to sell or photography as hobby? Two usually don't match each other.

RobC · Sep 6, 2015

take a look at:

http://www.beetlesandhuxley.com/artists/michael-kenna-born-1953.html

you will see that all his prints fit on 8x10 paper. He uses a Hasselblad.

If you buy an 8x10 or other large format camera and contact print then you save on the need for an enlarger.

The point being that it is possible to make a living from small sized prints.

However, you need to understand that its the exception and not the rule and Kenna has many years of experience. He has done a lot of commercial/advertising work especially for car companies. He has published many books. He has held many exhibitions in various countries. He has paid his dues to be in the position to receive the rewards he now commands. And he is naturally talented.

So are you that person? We don't know how it will pan out for you over the long term but there is no reason why small prints won't command a decent price except for who you are, how you're perceived by potential buyers and the quality and presentation of your work. And maybe who represents you (galleries).

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

Ko.Fe. said:
Are you about hobby to sell or photography as hobby? Two usually don't match each other.

I work as a barista. While I'm not rich, I'm not really hurting for money, either. I did photography as a hobby a while back, and even did the occasional portrait session, wedding, and sold the occasional landscape; I didn't really enjoy dealing with nagging wives and parents, so I gave up portraits because I didn't feel it was worth the hassle. The only other hobby I have is roasting coffee, and I do sell a bit of it to friends and family. Eventually, I'd like to open my own roastery and coffee shop. I dont think I'd pursue photography as a career, but if I can get some stuff in galleries or sell some prints on my own, then I think I'll be happy. So, I guess I'd call wanting to get back in to photography as a serious hobby that I hope to supplement my income; but as long as I'm enjoying the process, the money is secondary.

So, I guess that's a long, drawn out way of calling it a hobby

pdeeh · Sep 6, 2015

Alabamacoffeebean said:
. I'm a bit cautious of buying used equipment.

I didn't say 2nd hand,there are some surprisingly inexpensive new field cameras about, especially in 5x4, if you can manage without a sackful of movements and don't mind using a screwdriver

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

pdeeh said:
I didn't say 2nd hand,there are some surprisingly inexpensive new field cameras about, especially in 5x4, if you can manage without a sackful of movements and don't mind using a screwdriver

guess I misunderstood then.

I dont think I'll need a contortionist camera, so saving a bit of $$ at the cost of turning a camera in to a pretzel might not be a bad idea.

I'm finding that Shen Hao PTB more and more sexy the more I look at it. But, I'm going to spend a good bit of time shopping around before making a decision

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

RobC said:
take a look at:

http://www.beetlesandhuxley.com/artists/michael-kenna-born-1953.html

you will see that all his prints fit on 8x10 paper. He uses a Hasselblad.

If you buy an 8x10 or other large format camera and contact print then you save on the need for an enlarger.

The point being that it is possible to make a living from small sized prints.

However, you need to understand that its the exception and not the rule and Kenna has many years of experience. He has done a lot of commercial/advertising work especially for car companies. He has published many books. He has held many exhibitions in various countries. He has paid his dues to be in the position to receive the rewards he now commands. And he is naturally talented.

So are you that person? We don't know how it will pan out for you over the long term but there is no reason why small prints won't command a decent price except for who you are, how you're perceived by potential buyers and the quality and presentation of your work. And maybe who represents you (galleries).

Yeah, commanding a high price comes with experience. I'd never just buy a camera and call myself a master; I doubt I'd call myself such even if I was. That's the same attitude I take towards my job as a barista: there's quite a few who enjoy my drinks and come in when they know I'll be around; but there's also a few people that think I'm a curmudgeonly little turd, so that keeps my ego in check.

I'm scrolling through his site. His work looks amazing, and I'm sure it looks even better in person

RobC · Sep 6, 2015

I would add that most people when buying "art" are really buying decor for their home. So not only must they like the work but the work must fit the space they plan to hang it and look good in the space they are intending to hang it before they will actually make the decision to buy it.
And some people will only buy it if it has a name which they can impress their friends with. i.e. "known" or "fashionable" or "trending" artists and photographers.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 6, 2015

Go with a 5x7 camera. Remember that some of the alternative processes like cyanotype lose fine detail. The larger size of 5x7 over 4x5 will be appreciated.

Alabamacoffeebean · Sep 6, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
Go with a 5x7 camera. Remember that some of the alternative processes like cyanotype lose fine detail. The larger size of 5x7 over 4x5 will be appreciated.

oh yeah. I bet any kind of textured paper kills fine detail, too. I guess no matter which camera I end up with, I'll have to experiment with the papers till I find one I like

Steve Bellayr · Sep 6, 2015

Personally I believe that 5x7 is the minimum to view comfortably once framed and hung on a wall. For my photographs for personal use hanging on the wall I use 11x14 so I view them from a distance. I have seen some photographers offer for sale at craft fairs smaller prints but the price is very low and I can not see the image comfortably unless I am uncomfortably close as in book reading distance. I know that there are miniature painters and printers. Only offering your images will provide you with the correct answer.

whlogan · Sep 6, 2015

I am fortunate enough to have 6x6 cm contact print made by Josef Sudek. And it IS large enough for me! Beauty like this is large enough for me. Get good enough and what ever you make will be large enough for them. Some of my 5x7 contact prints have sold rather well. And I still love 'em. Being handicapped since my two tours in Viet-nam an 8x10 is just not carry-able for me but for many years since then a 5x7 was, so that's where I went and still go there. I just cannot schlep an 8x10 though God knows I have and still try. Use what we you have got left.

Logan

Vaughn · Sep 6, 2015

I have sold several platinum prints made from 2.25" square negs (Rolleiflex)...there is a market for them. Also I have made prints from two 4x5 negs. Lots of possibilities.

If you ever own a coffee shop, you'll also have your own gallery! Good luck!

Carbon print
Two negatives from a Diana Camera (each neg 1.75" sq)

Ridiculous question about small contact prints

Alabamacoffeebean

miha

Alabamacoffeebean

locutus

TheFlyingCamera

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Alabamacoffeebean

nsurit

Xmas

gone

Alabamacoffeebean

pdeeh

Alabamacoffeebean

Alabamacoffeebean

Ko.Fe.

RobC

Alabamacoffeebean

pdeeh

Alabamacoffeebean

Alabamacoffeebean

RobC

Gerald C Koch

Alabamacoffeebean

Steve Bellayr

whlogan

Vaughn

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