Richard Avedon article

[Peter Schrager]

Interesting article today in the NY about the 2 printers who did work for the above..seems they were gifted prints;never had them signed..want to sell them and the foundation is adamant about the sale of these prints
It's a good read..

 

[Peter Schrager]

Sorry that's the NEW YORK TIMES

 

[Fixcinater]

Link for those interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/nyregion/richard-avedon-unsigned-prints.html?_r=0

 

[rwreich]

Very interesting, indeed.

 

[Richard Man]

Great article! Get everything in writing

 

[Bob Carnie]

Great Article- I have a large collection of prints gifted to me by photographers, some signed others not, I think I will pull them all together and get
them signed.

 

[Alan Klein]

A few years ago I went to an Avedon exhibit in a museum on Long Island in NYS. They were very interesting but I noticed what I thought were defects with them or their presentation. Some seemed blurrier than I thought would be acceptable (at least to me.) Other seemed to be framed in a way that seemed to cut off ends of shoes or parts of the body where the original in my opinion would have been included in the photo by Avedon. So I asked the museum person if the prints were framed by the museum. They said "no", that's the way it cane to them. So it raised in my mind "who screwed up?" Now reading that Avedon didn't do his own printing, one must conclude that he didn't do his own framing either. And that people who handled his photos then and more so now may be screwing up the final results. What this all means, I'm not sure.

As an aside, back in the 80's I had a large poster of Avedon's picture of a pregnant Natasha Kinski with the boa constrictor up on the wall behind my desk. (I was the boss so I could get away with it). I would love it when people would sit down to discuss things or sell me something or better yet try to negotiate something. I would watch their eyes taking furtive glances at the picture trying to stay focused on our discussion. I'm not that weird any more, I think. https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5340/7185969256_411bcea341.jpg

 

[Patrick Robert James]

There is a lot of money in exhibition and sales of vintage prints. Maybe the AF are trying to keep the gravy train going. These prints will be especially valuable since they are pristine and straight from the printer.

As Bob noted above it is pretty common for printers to have an agreement to keep some prints. That along with the two or three people who could testify that they know of the agreement, and the simple fact that he wasn't paid by Avedon for printing them is evidence of the deal too. Should put an end to any problems the guy has, but he needs to be proactive about it.

 

[Bob Carnie]

This article is very close to my heart, I have 50 original printer proofs that have not been signed by a photographer I have been working with over the last 8 - 10 years, This body of work IMHO will hit the market and make the photographer very famous. I have spent countless days speaking with the photographer about every aspect of the project and have made countless test print sessions to raise the game of the prints.

This work has been done over a long time and to date I am the only printer who has touched the negatives.. I will definitely go back over my collection and make sure I have signatures. One day I may need to sell a print to survive and this work will be in Museums and collections and worth some coinage.
Verbal contracts will not go far I am afraid, we are living in a funny world. Reading the article I can see how the printer did not get these signed by Avedon and maybe was intimidated by asking. There is no way in the world he was doing this without Avedon's knowledge, basically in our world (printers) making Bastard Prints will kill your business. I have never seen this happen in my 40 years of printing for others. My family depends on me being able to continue.

This printer is well known for this body of work and I think the Estate may be full of shit on this one.
Being a show printer myself gives me a bit of perspective on what it took to make IN THE AMERICAN WEST - this would have been an incredible amount of time , energy and financial effort. Holding back a complete set of 20 x24 prints for future sale would be impossible, someone would say something. The timelines would have been long, the communication with R Avedon and the Printer would have been extensive and though he certainly made a mistake in not putting signature to paper, I can truly see how this could have happened.

There is a lot of money in exhibition and sales of vintage prints. Maybe the AF are trying to keep the gravy train going. These prints will be especially valuable since they are pristine and straight from the printer.

As Bob noted above it is pretty common for printers to have an agreement to keep some prints. That along with the two or three people who could testify that they know of the agreement, and the simple fact that he wasn't paid by Avedon for printing them is evidence of the deal too. Should put an end to any problems the guy has, but he needs to be proactive about it.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Bob get those prints signed!!.yes the foundation is full of you know what...it's so obvious that he was "gifted " the prints
Damn he made them.. anyone holding one of my unsigned prints please contact me
Best peter

 

[MattKing]

The problem with assuming that the printer was "given" the prints to use as he wished is problematic. Not because there isn't a good chance that the assumption is correct, but because one could just as easily assume that the prints were intended to be non-saleable printer's proofs.
As copyright continues to reside with the estate, possession of the prints doesn't prove much.
I hope the result is favourable to him, because he deserves it.
Get it in writing. At the very least, get an oral agreement where the terms are precise, and where you have an independent witness to those terms being accepted by all interested parties.
Get it in writing.

 

[CropDusterMan]

Lawyers. They've ruined everything.

 

[MattKing]

Lawyers. They've ruined everything.

You clearly have never sat in a room with two people who have entirely different understandings of the "simple" agreement they thought that they had made between themselves.

People who get help from lawyers early avoid disputes - especially people whose strengths tend toward more artistry and craft than they do toward specifics of agreements.

When I used to practice, I was pretty good at getting the "I would never have thought of that" response from clients, when I used to run through "what if?" scenarios with them.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Lawyers. They've ruined everything.

You're damn skippy!

 

[Kevin Caulfield]

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting. It explains the arguments from each side quite clearly. I hope he (the printer) gets what he deserves.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I think people that gravitate towards the darkroom like myself are a bit naive on how the real world works. I would be happy each day just going downstairs and making prints and then watch the ball game with my wife at the end of the day, I am as guilty as this printer of kind of trusting a persons word, I can imagine that I will have a very difficult time getting signatures on some prints as over time client relationships change and in some cases I am not on speaking terms with some past great relationships.
I know of one photographer that freely and generously gifted me Pt Pd prints, Silver Gelatin Prints, and for sure he would just tell me to f... off if I asked him to sign them now. I have basically ripped up all those prints as they are reminders of this story.

This issue has long plagued our industry, I think someone could elaborate about the tension between Helmut Newton and his printer.. other than find the passages, the story goes that HN pissed off his printer so much that for years the printer would not make prints for him , it took massive effort on HN part to get back in the good graces .

Most of the best printers I have ever met , Ron Gordon included all agree that trying to copy another printers print is extremely hard and it was quite possible Helmut Newton could not find a replacement that was 1. willing to do basic copy work or 2. even be able to match.

When you work on a serious body of work over a long period of time, the give and take is enormous on both ends, and usually its a lot of extra work for a printer to figure out his/her clients needs and tastes. There is so much behind the scene mentoring going on , and in my case much of this never is paid for. I have never in the past been paid for this part of my job, and the printers proofs were always appreciated as some compensation.

I think this printer will do alright in the end with this situation, it is just sad that he left it too long, but I feel his pain and understand the dynamics quite clearly.

FWIW every printer I have known , and over 40 years I have met quite a few would be horrified if they were ever accused of making Bastard Prints. Its an unwritten rule in the trades. You would have immediately lost your job in any quality facility. To this day I still rip prints that are going to garbage for this very reason.

 

[tedr1]

I wonder if it would give the printer in this case some satisfaction to set up an exhibition (maybe in his home?) of some of the images. The "official" versions are stashed away out of sight and rarely seen, some people in NYC might make the trip to Newburgh to see these prints, I know I would.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Maybe if Avedon wasn't so grossly over-rated as a photographer this wouldn't be an issue to begin with. I'm sick of seeing his stuff all over the place, and always did think of much of his work as half-baked and pretentious to begin with. But I'm not a New Yorker.

 

[David Brown]

Maybe if Avedon wasn't so grossly over-rated as a photographer this wouldn't be an issue to begin with. I'm sick of seeing his stuff all over the place, and always did think of much of his work as half-baked and pretentious to begin with. But I'm not a New Yorker.

Oh, please. I'm sorry, this is almost a non sequitur. You're (or my, or anyone else's) personal opinion of Avedon IS NOT the issue here.

(also not a "New Yorker" - whatever that means ...)

 

[Richard Man]

I am the anti-Drew As the time progresses, I am more impressed with Mr. Avedon ;-P

 

[gus.]

Wow. Very interesting. I just hung my first pieces and was very fortunate to have a painter friend help me with matting, framing, and the importance of a dated signature.