Rice/wheat starch

ChrisBCS · Jul 3, 2017

Hi all, I've been making some prints that are edge to edge with no easel white space, and I'd like to avoid corner covering but still make sure the print lays perfectly flat on the mount. These are on RC paper. Rather than just using the pendulum or T hanging mounts with tissue, is it possible (with good results) to use rice or wheat starch directly on the back of a print to mount it to conservation/backing board?

MattKing · Jul 3, 2017

I don't know that rice or wheat starch would reliably adhere to RC paper, or if it did, whether it would continue to adhere over time.

ChrisBCS · Jul 3, 2017

Thanks Matt. I hadn't thought of that.

removed account4 · Jul 3, 2017

ChrisBCS said:
Hi all, I've been making some prints that are edge to edge with no easel white space, and I'd like to avoid corner covering but still make sure the print lays perfectly flat on the mount. These are on RC paper. Rather than just using the pendulum or T hanging mounts with tissue, is it possible (with good results) to use rice or wheat starch directly on the back of a print to mount it to conservation/backing board?

hi chris

i have glued rc/ machine prints to rag paper / pages in a book,
and they stuck very well. they lie FLAT though and are not hanging against gravity.
some people mix 1/2 wheat paste and 1/2 PVA ( poly vinyl acetate white glue ) when
they make books &c, its less reversible but it holds well. you might do a series of tests
on a piece of mat board and a few scraps or test prints to see what holds best ..

look into this book: http://www.librarything.com/work/248503
its the zeier book ... or go to your local library and see if they have information on book making

have fun !
john

Gerald C Koch · Jul 3, 2017

Mix up a thick batch of unflavored gelatin and put it in a shallow tray. Once it sets the gelatin should have enough tack to hold a print without damaging it.

MattKing · Jul 3, 2017

Gerald C Koch said:
Mix up a thick batch of unflavored gelatin and put it in a shallow tray. Once it sets the gelatin should have enough tack to hold a print without damaging it.

Gerald:
Wouldn't the gelatin attract unwanted visitors?

adelorenzo · Jul 3, 2017

Dry mounting is the best way to do that. A press is the best way but, before I got my press, I got good results using a clothes iron. Dry mount tissue is cheap, there are versions specifically for RC paper.

Failing that i've used 3M Super 77 spray for RC prints as well. I don't know that I would trust it with fiber.

ChrisBCS · Jul 3, 2017

Thanks delorenzo, but 3M spray goes against everything I have ever learned about art, and read about mounting photographic prints. I had heard of a lot of people not able to do the iron mount very well.

Arklatexian · Jul 4, 2017

ChrisBCS said:
Hi all, I've been making some prints that are edge to edge with no easel white space, and I'd like to avoid corner covering but still make sure the print lays perfectly flat on the mount. These are on RC paper. Rather than just using the pendulum or T hanging mounts with tissue, is it possible (with good results) to use rice or wheat starch directly on the back of a print to mount it to conservation/backing board?

Something to keep in mind. Back in olden times, our camera club sent a group of mounted prints to a competition
in El Paso, Texas. When the prints were returned, all of the prints mounted with water based adhesives had come off of their mounts. The dry El Paso atmosphere had done them in. I have always used dry mount tissue since then. I would say that both rice or wheat starch are water based.......Regards!..I would think this would especially apply to RC papers.

pdeeh · Jul 4, 2017

ChrisBCS said:
3M spray goes against everything I have ever learned about art, and read about mounting photographic prints

Wasn't there a recent thread (very old but relit recently) about 3m spraymount in which 3M products had been checked out and found to be fine?

MattKing said:
Wouldn't the gelatin attract unwanted visitors

A bit of Listerine (original) or a drop or two of 10% Thymol in isopropanol should stop fungal or bacterial attack

MattKing · Jul 4, 2017

pdeeh said:
A bit of Listerine (original) or a drop or two of 10% Thymol in isopropanol should stop fungal or bacterial attack

Have to be the Listerine here in Canada - Thymol is a restricted and highly controlled substance.

pdeeh · Jul 4, 2017

Ah yes, I remember we had that conversation before, now you mention.

adelorenzo · Jul 4, 2017

ChrisBCS said:
Thanks delorenzo, but 3M spray goes against everything I have ever learned about art, and read about mounting photographic prints. I had heard of a lot of people not able to do the iron mount very well.

If you're serious about archival mounting then it's dry mount or nothing AFAIK. I had no issues mounting up to 11x14 using a clothes iron, I never tried anything larger. My box of Kodak dry mount tissue even has instructions on how to do it that way.

Also I can't imagine how it would be easier to get a clean, flat mount with paste than with dry mount tissue.

Rudolf Karachun · Jul 4, 2017

Rice starch perfect for gluing rc prints.

Rudolf Karachun · Jul 4, 2017

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

ChrisBCS · Jul 4, 2017

Thank you for sharing your experience Rudolf! We have a big art store here in Houston that carries it. i will give it a whirl!

Rudolf Karachun · Jul 4, 2017

ChrisBCS said:
Thank you for sharing your experience Rudolf! We have a big art store here in Houston that carries it. i will give it a whirl!

You welcome Chris. I suggest you to check the Internet for the recipe how to use the corn starch. The starch must be dissolved in smol amount of water and after cooked until it became thick paste a bit more thicker then iogurt. It can be kept refrigerated about a week long and if nessesary dissolved with water. But I didn't dissolve it, it works fine for me when thick. Also when you in the store ask for a brash recommended for the applyING the glue, and you will nead a roller to press the print to the mat board. I just got the rubber roller from the hardware store. From my experience I don't apply the glue up to the edge of the print. I living about 1/8 or 3/16 next to the edge clean from glue. I upplying glue only to the mat and after lowering the print on the mat I cover everything with the waxed paper from the food store and carefully press the print to the mat with the roller from the center of the print to the edges. The roller will push the glue to the edges where you didn't upply it, but hopefully not farther. Actually if you apply more glue then required and it will be pressed out on the edges it can be cleaned with wet cloth right away until glue not dry. After pressing the print with roller I cover print with clean layer of waxed paper and living it under pressure overnight. You will need some flat panel or say a thick plywood panel to cover the print and some heavy staff like a few bricks or something heavy to upply the pressure. Leave them pressured overnight and in the morning they will be flat and dry. Practice on some test prints to start feeling how much glue you need to apply, before working with good ones.

fdi · Jul 6, 2017

In general the main issue with mounting is print and the substrate do not expand and contract at the same rate over time with temperature changes which results in buckling of the print, and general failure of many mounting adhesives. This leaves two choices, either t-hinge the print so it can freely expand and contract, or permanently mount it. If you use something like 3M super 77 and you hand mount it, you are sort of mostly permanently mounting it but not as permanent as dry mounting. The advantage of the dry mount is two fold. One, the adhesive is fully applied (with spray you might miss an area), and the press fully activates the adhesive across 100% of the surface (assuming done properly of course). Now small items you can do by hand, and you might have a permanent enough mount, but larger items get tough. So it comes down to how big is the print and how long do you want it to last.

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 6, 2017

Get some drymounting tissue and a iron. Place a piece of non stick baking sheet on top of the print, cover with matt board and iron. I mounted 40 8x10 fibre-based contact prints this way for a show in Japan, before I owned a press.

MattKing · Jul 6, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
non stick baking sheet

Do you mean "non-stick baking paper aka parchment paper"?

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 6, 2017

That could be it...it was something I bought at a grocery store in Japan. It was white and silicone coated...

MattKing · Jul 6, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
That could be it...it was something I bought at a grocery store in Japan. It was white and silicone coated...

Sounds like "release paper" - the parchment paper works well too.

Andrew O'Neill · Jul 6, 2017

No, it was definitely for baking... found it in the baking section.

MattKing · Jul 6, 2017

Andrew O'Neill said:
No, it was definitely for baking... found it in the baking section.

Yep - like this:
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