RH Designs = Digital?

jeroldharter · Dec 24, 2007

I think you have a point that Photoshop is a logical extension of mastering camera/darkroom work and in a sense taking photography to "a new level." The more gadgets that we use in analog photography, the more we resemble digital photographers. The issue that I have with digital is that I just don't like "the next level" and prefer analog photography. I like the esthetics of film, processing, and darkroom work. This has been talked to death but I think it comes down to preference.

jamusu · Dec 24, 2007

Excellent point Jerold.

Jon King · Dec 24, 2007

jamusu said:
Thanx everyone for the advice. It is really helpful.

As stated earlier I am relatively new to photography and am still learning. I don't like using test-strips. In fact I have not used any in over a year and a half. I usually make my calculations based off of one sheet of paper and make my adjustments accordingly. I have read on this site that RH DESIGNS equipment will aid me in that process if used correctly which is one of my reasons for starting the thread..

Where would I be without APUG!

Jamusu.

I use test strips, and sometimes an EM10 meter ($30 meter.. - gets you in the ballpark for the test strips, really). As my negatives get more consistent, I find that I can 'almost' skip using test strips.. but even using them, where it once took me over an hour to get to a good basic print using test strips, it is now 10 minutes or less. At that point I'm 90% to my final print, but it still can take an hour, or several to tune the print a final print that I'm happy with - the fine tuning can go on and on.

I'd love to try an RH designs timer. From what I've read, I think it would get me even closer to my final tweaking.. but that final bit would still be the subjective, intuitive bit that we all use.

Reading this thread made me think about what I've read about A. Adams and E. Weston.. Adams measured and was very quantitative, Weston was intuitive.. very qualitative. But each, in their own ways, mastered their materials, as well as their subjects.. there's more than one way to skin a cat.

MattKing · Dec 24, 2007

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that it would be very difficult to get even a small portion of the full benefit out of the RH Design equipment (or any of the other useful technological assists in the darkroom) unless you have a well grounded knowledge about how to do things the old, manual way.

Matt

jamusu · Dec 24, 2007

Matt from what I have read on this site you are correct.

Dave Miller · Dec 25, 2007

MattKing said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that it would be very difficult to get even a small portion of the full benefit out of the RH Design equipment (or any of the other useful technological assists in the darkroom) unless you have a well grounded knowledge about how to do things the old, manual way.

Matt

Quite right Matt; it's just like Photoshop in that respect.

Dan Henderson · Dec 25, 2007

I think Matt's point is made by the route that I have followed in my work. I took up the f/stop method of printing several years ago, making changes in test strip times in 1/2 stop increments instead of 2 second or some other arbitrary time. It was easy to do with a regular electronic timer, just resetting the timer for each 1/2 stop increment. Since 1/2 stop time changes correspond with aperture settings they were easy to remember.

Last summer I took a printing seminar with Les McLean, and had the chance to buy the RH Stop Clock Pro that he had with him. It took the work out of resetting the timer for each strip when testing, making the process more efficient for me. But it was based on what I already knew and was doing in practice.

Now, when I get to a pilot print, I find myself judging it in fine f/stop increments: "the highlights seem a a little too dark, so I think I will cut the time with the soft exposure by 1/3, no, just 1/4 stop." I tell the timer to reduce by 1/4 stop and it calculates the time. Again more efficient for me, but based on my experience.

Merry Christmas, everyone!
Dan

jamusu · Dec 25, 2007

Should I take one of Les' workshops before purchasing them? I plan on purchasing his book as well.

Jamusu

Nick Zentena · Dec 25, 2007

I count steamboats for B&W.

RobC · Dec 25, 2007

If its any use to you, fstop adjustments as given by Fstop print timers can be expressed as percentages and these can easily be applied to times for adjustment without the need for specialist equipment.

The maths is simple. You just raise 2 to the power of the Fstop difference and the decimal portion of the result is the time difference expressed as a percentage.
So a 1/3 stop adjustment would be 2^.333 = 1.259 and the decimal portion is .259 or 25.9% and if you round that to a convenient percentage which is close enough, then a 1/3 stop change is a 25% time change.

so you can quickly get to:

1/8 stop = 9% rounded to 10%
1/6 stop = 12%
1/4 stop = 19% rounded to 20%
1/3 stop = 25.9% rounded to 25%
1/2 stop = 41% rounded to 40%
2/3 stop = 59% rounded to 60%
3/4 stop = 68% rounded to 70%

and all those pecentages can easily be applied with simple mental arithmetic.

edtbjon · Dec 25, 2007

jamusu said:
Should I take one of Les' workshops before purchasing them? I plan on purchasing his book as well.

Jamusu

If I had the money and time to travel from Sweden I would love to go to one of Les' workshops, but in the meantime I feel very happy using my StopClock timer.
I havn't had the opportunity to read his book either, but that is easier to remedy.
Anyhow, Jamusu, you seem to have some experience in the darkroom. Many people like the f-stop printing system, some don't. The same thing goes for split-grade printing. A timer from RH Designs will (probably) help you becoming more productive, while changing the way you look and think about printing (away from counting seconds towards seeing values as f-stops).

//Björn

Chuck_P · Dec 25, 2007

I love test strips .

Dave Miller · Dec 25, 2007

Nick Zentena said:
I count steamboats for B&W.

Do you consider Italian steamboats more, or less accurate than elephants?:confused:

Nick Zentena · Dec 25, 2007

I'm actually not bad with counting seconds. No worse then my old Gralab 300 -)

Chuck_P · Dec 25, 2007

rob champagne said:
If its any use to you, fstop adjustments as given by Fstop print timers can be expressed as percentages and these can easily be applied to times for adjustment without the need for specialist equipment.

The maths is simple. You just raise 2 to the power of the Fstop difference and the decimal portion of the result is the time difference expressed as a percentage.
So a 1/3 stop adjustment would be 2^.333 = 1.259 and the decimal portion is .259 or 25.9% and if you round that to a convenient percentage which is close enough, then a 1/3 stop change is a 25% time change.

so you can quickly get to:

1/8 stop = 9% rounded to 10%
1/6 stop = 12%
1/4 stop = 19% rounded to 20%
1/3 stop = 25.9% rounded to 25%
1/2 stop = 41% rounded to 40%
2/3 stop = 59% rounded to 60%
3/4 stop = 68% rounded to 70%

and all those pecentages can easily be applied with simple mental arithmetic.

I do the percentage "thing" without trying to relate them to f/stop changes. I simply say that I think the important highlight area could benefit from an increase of 20% more exposure, or whatever. I came to really be able to predict that percentage change with Ilford MG IV RC paper rather than a mere increase in arbitrary chunk of seconds. I'm switching to MG IV fiber and I expect to be able to predict those percentage changes as well with time.

Dave Miller · Dec 25, 2007

rob champagne said:
If its any use to you, fstop adjustments as given by Fstop print timers can be expressed as percentages and these can easily be applied to times for adjustment without the need for specialist equipment.

The maths is simple. You just raise 2 to the power of the Fstop difference and the decimal portion of the result is the time difference expressed as a percentage.
So a 1/3 stop adjustment would be 2^.333 = 1.259 and the decimal portion is .259 or 25.9% and if you round that to a convenient percentage which is close enough, then a 1/3 stop change is a 25% time change.

so you can quickly get to:

1/8 stop = 9% rounded to 10%
1/6 stop = 12%
1/4 stop = 19% rounded to 20%
1/3 stop = 25.9% rounded to 25%
1/2 stop = 41% rounded to 40%
2/3 stop = 59% rounded to 60%
3/4 stop = 68% rounded to 70%

and all those pecentages can easily be applied with simple mental arithmetic.

You may well be right Rob, but I think I will continue relying on my f-stop timer to do the mundane math, and get on with the creative bit.

RobC · Dec 25, 2007

In response to Chuck:

I agree entirely. I have an RH StopClock timer but I don't use it for Fstop printing. But if someone wants to follow that path, then it can simply be converted to percentages which makes sense of both approaches.
Printing by numbers is not my thing. It should be a far more subjective process IMO rather than reduced to an objective process such as in FStop printing which I tried and found my prints all looked the same and did not express my vision. Each to his own...

Chuck_P · Dec 25, 2007

Film "guys" (and "gals") are a passionate lot, aren't we?

All for the love of the wet process. So, in this discussion, the process does not really matter because we all expose paper to light and so it is the end result that counts.

Dave Miller · Dec 25, 2007

Rob, I'm at a complete loss to understand how the method of timing the exposures can have any effect on your artistic intent. Please explain.

RobC · Dec 25, 2007

Dave Miller said:
Rob, I'm at a complete loss to understand how the method of timing the exposures can have any effect on your artistic intent. Please explain.

I just don't don't like the FStop methodology. Don't worry about it. As I said, each to his own.

jamusu · Dec 25, 2007

Rob, what is not to like about it? Just curious in that I have never tried it before.

Dave Miller · Dec 25, 2007

Even before I had an f-stop timer I used the f-stop printing method by utilising the exposure table in Tim Rudman’s book. It seems a much more intuitive method than linear timing since it is precisely the same method that I use to adjust exposure when I make my negatives in camera. The acquisition of the RH timer just make it much easier to adjust exposure durations. Of greater benefit is the ability to easily change paper sizes, and types by making a simple overall adjustment to the base exposure time, all other dodging and burning exposure adjustments then being made for me by the timer.

Mick Fagan · Dec 25, 2007

Dave, that is the first time I have heard a paper size change explained so well, the ability of the timer to make burning and dodging identical at a larger or smaller size so easily, is something to make one consider, once again, one of these timers.

Yesterday I changed from an 8x10 paper to a 12x16 with the same neg. I probably took about 2 minutes to work out the 1/4 stop burn here, the 3/4 stop burn there, the 1/12 stop hold on the eye here, over base exposure.

I have been using f stop printing for about 18 years and I have a chart alongside my chair in front of the enlarger where I have an f stop chart which runs in 1/16 increments from 1.2 seconds through to 294.4 seconds.

Mick.

jamusu · Dec 25, 2007

Man! I can't wait to try f-stop timing. How big is the learning curve?

Jamusu.

RobC · Dec 25, 2007

That old so called benefit over other is systems is trolled out again. It should not have escaped your notice that using percentage time changes you get exactly the same paper size change benefit. I.E. it is not a benefit specific to FStop printing but someone always tries to give the impression that it is.

RH Designs = Digital?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency