Rewashing Film - Portra 160, Tri-X 400, Fuji Acros

filmnumpty · Jun 9, 2014

Hello All. OK. I've now attempted to develop my film using a Tetenal C-41 Kit. I really wish I hadn't. :-(

The is the first biggest batch of Portra 160 film (120) in one go with new chemicals and and brand new expensive thermometer.
A lot of the frames seem to have either lines in them or halos of light and dark areas or weird purple kind of hues, especially in the more whiter areas of the frame. I'll post some more of the extreme examples shortly.

Also this seems to have happened with my 35mm Tri-X in HC-100, thought the overall pink hue does not seem to have gone away.
I accidentally left one of the films in the last rinse for over 20 minutes when I had to sort out a dog barking and daughter crying issue and that Tri-X was perfectly grey with no pink with no light/dark stripes, lovely grain and my best batch to date.

Because of this my thoughts are that I did not wash the Portra or Tri-x's correctly and wonder is it is possible to rewash them?

I wrap my film roll after completing the frames. I then have a Patterson tank and develop one at a time in 100ml more chemical to make sure the film is completely covered. I develop at 38 and 30 degree with the same outcome. I turn the film gently and don't invert.

Here is one of the bad Tri-X ones.

Here is one of the bad Portra ones.

Here is one of the almost good ones.

Please help me. I don't really want to give my shots to the lab. But I also don't want to lose any more shots to my bad developing.

Tom1956 · Jun 9, 2014

Tri-X is uneven development agitation. or bad felt or foam in camera back light trap.
Third is lens glare or flare, or condensation on lens.

pdmk · Jun 9, 2014

for purple portra, did you have correct times and temperature?
is your "brand new expensive" thermometer calibrated?

pentaxuser · Jun 9, 2014

filmnumpty said:
Hello All. OK. I've now attempted to develop my film using a Tetenal C-41 Kit. I really wish I hadn't. :-(

.

Sorry to hear about your problems but I think we can rule out the Tetenal kit being the problem and hopefully by showing us one of the better frames you have done that yourself

If you have followed all the kit's instructions when processing then you have done everything you need to do to produce good negs, provided of course that there wasn't a problem at the film loading, exposure and unloading stage.

If I were you I'd free my mind from the kit being the problem to give me more scope to examine other causes.

If Tetenal kits has these faults then I think we can assume that the thread on this would make the "Kodak Alaris Responds" thread look short-lived

pentaxuser

pdeeh · Jun 9, 2014

I'd also be surprised if it were the Tetenal kit - I recently did my first 7 or 8 rolls of colour with one and none of them showed this sort of problem. So I would be looking at whether the working solutions were made up correctly, and at temperature control and agitation during development.

If my Tri-X came out of the tank looking like that, I'd be wondering whether I'd agitated properly during development. It may be that "turning the film gently" is not enough.

Plus of course as pentaxuser says, the problem may lie earlier on in the chain

gone · Jun 9, 2014

I hope you get it sorted out, because I really like the potential of those shots. Why don't you go out and re shoot them as best you can, and let the film just sit until you get the problem sorted out? Those type of pics are ephemeral, so it would be good to get them in the can and work out the issues later on some trial rolls. I have oodles of experience w/ Tri-X (and none w/ color) and can only recommend one thing....use D76 or TD-16 for that film. It's a match made in heaven, and foolproof developing if you don't over agitate.

Urmonas · Jun 9, 2014

The Tri-X shot shows insufficient aggitation. The Purple hue on that film will be the sensitising dies not washed out fully.

Not sure what aggitation is required for your C-41 kit, but I normally run colour in a drum so continuous aggitation. Are the "bad" shots mostly at one end of the film, or only in the middle? This could indicate aggitatin issues.

summicron1 · Jun 9, 2014

not sure what you mean by "turn the film gently and don't invert." Does this mean you don't invert the tank but just swish it back and forth, or something?

sounds to me, too, as if you are not getting enough agitation -- you want to keep fresh chemicals against the whole surface of the film at the proper sequence to get proper and even development.

You can almost always re-wash film. I rewash b/w -- hard to wash too long, too -- it's just water removing excess chemicals. That purple cast to tri-x washes out after a while, that's usually how I know I've washed it long enough.

Jaf-Photo · Jun 9, 2014

I think it's uneven development due to insufficent agitation. Accordingly, areas of the emulsion has not had enough chemical exposure to develop them properly.

I use Digibase C41, mixed from concentrate, and I do fairly frequent and gentle inversions in a Paterson tank.The frequency depends onthe time and temperature.

It does take some practice to tune in a good C41 development routine. So the best thing to do is to shoot a number of test rolls. Develop one, examine the results, adapt your routine, do another etc until you are getting consistent results.

Rudeofus · Jun 9, 2014

filmnumpty, that's a lot of issues, let me try to get these sorted out one after another:

As mentioned by others, you need to wash Tri-X (and color film) a lot longer that you originally did, and you need fresh fixer for it. I have found that washing in 30°C water helps a lot. Yes, you can rewash film as often as you want, but remember that in C-41 processing the STAB step is always the last fluid touching your film. With B&W film you don't need STAB, but a deionized water rinse at the end reduces water marks on your film strips.
I have made the experience, that especially with medium format film and C-41 processing you need to use a stop bath after the CD step. This should take care of all the unevenness in your color images. You can use a regular B&W stop bath for this. Others have mentioned agitation, make sure you have that pinned down, too. Once you have agitation sorted out for B&W, you can take another shot at color processing.
I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that you have a color cast in your color shots. Chances are that your scanner software fooled you here. It does a lot of auto-this and smart-that and tends to screw up color hues until you fix them in post processing. Unless you run a real C-41 test strip through a decent densitometer, I don't believe for one second that your negs are off in this regard.

Jaf-Photo · Jun 9, 2014

Rudeofus said:
filmnumpty, that's a lot of issues, let me try to get these sorted out one after another:

As mentioned by others, you need to wash Tri-X (and color film) a lot longer that you originally did, and you need fresh fixer for it. I have found that washing in 30°C water helps a lot. Yes, you can rewash film as often as you want, but remember that in C-41 processing the STAB step is always the last fluid touching your film. With B&W film you don't need STAB, but a deionized water rinse at the end reduces water marks on your film strips.

I have made the experience, that especially with medium format film and C-41 processing you need to use a stop bath after the CD step. This should take care of all the unevenness in your color images. You can use a regular B&W stop bath for this. Others have mentioned agitation, make sure you have that pinned down, too. Once you have agitation sorted out for B&W, you can take another shot at color processing.

I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion that you have a color cast in your color shots. Chances are that your scanner software fooled you here. It does a lot of auto-this and smart-that and tends to screw up color hues until you fix them in post processing. Unless you run a real C-41 test strip through a decent densitometer, I don't believe for one second that your negs are off in this regard.

In my experience, the uneveness of the first two images is not scanner related. Scanning software can do some unwanted processing, but the above effect is definitely in the negative.

I could add that I really like the third image. It does have some issues but they create a rather artistic effect that suits the scene.

summicron1 said:
not sure what you mean by "turn the film gently and don't invert." Does this mean you don't invert the tank but just swish it back and forth, or something?

sounds to me, too, as if you are not getting enough agitation -- you want to keep fresh chemicals against the whole surface of the film at the proper sequence to get proper and even development.

By turning the film gently, I think the OP meant twirling the Paterson stick.

It's a good idea to do that for the first agitation immediately after pouring the chemicals in the tank. This will help start the chemical action evenly across the film.

For the following agitations, it is better to put the lid on and gently invert the tank to let all the liquid flow down until you invert it back. That way the chems are refreshed across the whole surface of the film.

Ronald Moravec · Jun 9, 2014

Gentle agitation is the biggest myth going on the internet and it has been going for decades now. I am getting sick of answering. Every problem I ever had (almost) can be traced to gentle agitation.

Kodak instructions for manual ( non machine) C41 which requires CONTINUOUS agitation is 5 to 7 inversions of a small tank every 15 sec. When I went to JOBO machine, the film speed is full speed. I kept it up for 60 sec , then slowed it.
Same for 4x5 sheet film.

Assuming nothing else wrong, the streaks on tri x are bromide drag emanating near the sprocket holes. Meaning those are areas where the developer was not fully replenished. If the instructions are still up on Kodaks site, they will say for a small tank, 30 sec upon immersion, and 5 to 7 inversions every 30 sec. Trust me those who promote gentle do not know more than Kodak. Kodak gives you the best instruction because they want you to like their film. They do not want it screwed up because amateurs invent their own procedures.

The other error, the the wet dry edge must start at one side and proceed rapidly across the film. Paterson tanks do this by design. With stainless, best practice is to drop the loaded reel into a tank full of developer, cap, and commence agitation.

filmnumpty · Jun 10, 2014

Tom1956 said:
Tri-X is uneven development agitation. or bad felt or foam in camera back light trap.
Third is lens glare or flare, or condensation on lens.

I have just had my Camera overhauled by a reputable company so this should not be the problem.

Agitation (inversion) does seem to be a problem as I don't do that I rotate the film with the little stick thing.

filmnumpty · Jun 10, 2014

Yep I meant twirling the little stick thing.

Sounds like my problem is agitation issues.
You wait so long to get the chemicals up to temp (which I find almost impossible to match at 38 degrees) it does my head in.

I down graded this to 30 degrees for two rolls which I felt gave me more time.

The point you put in the developer it feels like everything is happening too quickly. Dev in, rush to twiddle the stick, try and get the lid on prepare the next chemical, check the temps. It's exciting, I love it, but very scary at the same time.

Thank you for the advice. I'll give that a go.

Jaf-Photo said:
In my experience, the uneveness of the first two images is not scanner related. Scanning software can do some unwanted processing, but the above effect is definitely in the negative.

I could add that I really like the third image. It does have some issues but they create a rather artistic effect that suits the scene.

By turning the film gently, I think the OP meant twirling the Paterson stick.

It's a good idea to do that for the first agitation immediately after pouring the chemicals in the tank. This will help start the chemical action evenly across the film.

For the following agitations, it is better to put the lid on and gently invert the tank to let all the liquid flow down until you invert it back. That way the chems are refreshed across the whole surface of the film.

filmnumpty · Jun 10, 2014

The times were on the box and on the dev kit.

The temp was using two different types of thermometer.
A glass one and digital. they were both in .5 of the desired temp.

Calibrated? I assume that was done at the factory?
How do I do that?

pdmk said:
for purple portra, did you have correct times and temperature?
is your "brand new expensive" thermometer calibrated?

filmnumpty · Jun 10, 2014

Urmonas said:
The Tri-X shot shows insufficient aggitation. The Purple hue on that film will be the sensitising dies not washed out fully.

Not sure what aggitation is required for your C-41 kit, but I normally run colour in a drum so continuous aggitation. Are the "bad" shots mostly at one end of the film, or only in the middle? This could indicate aggitatin issues.

Nearly always in the middle. :-(

filmnumpty · Jun 10, 2014

momus said:
I hope you get it sorted out, because I really like the potential of those shots. Why don't you go out and re shoot them as best you can, and let the film just sit until you get the problem sorted out? Those type of pics are ephemeral, so it would be good to get them in the can and work out the issues later on some trial rolls. I have oodles of experience w/ Tri-X (and none w/ color) and can only recommend one thing....use D76 or TD-16 for that film. It's a match made in heaven, and foolproof developing if you don't over agitate.

Thank you so much. It's a great shame they did not work out as like you say they only happen once every so often.

Jaf-Photo · Jun 10, 2014

With the modern C41 kits, it's better to follow the instructions with the kit. They typically state one inversion every 30 seconds.

I use the Digibase C41 kit, which works even at room temerature. This is a lot easier to work with as timing becomes less critical.

If you develop at 100F for 3 1/4 minute, a difference of 2 degrees or 15 seconds could shift the colours. If you work at room temerature, you'll be developing for about 14 minutes, which means that slight variations wont affect the outcome as much.

Once that works, you can work on your temperature control and ramp it up.

Urmonas · Jun 10, 2014

filmnumpty said:
Nearly always in the middle. :-(

This would agree with your using the stick for aggitation. Fresh chemicals are able to get in at either end of the roll, but the film in the middle gets the "depleted" chemicals from another part of the film.

With the rushed timing, I use a series of bottles (one for each thing that goes into the tank including rinse water) so that everything is already pre-measured and at temperature. Then it is realitively easy to pour with one hand, have the cap ready in the other. As soon as the chemical is in the tank, the cap goes on while the other hand tosses the bottle into the sink (plastic bottle obviously!) and hits the timer. Then somewhere during the inversion / waiting process I remove the cap from the next bottle ... Depending on what water bath you are using, you may need to make some sort of frame to hold all the bottles in place so they don't try to float and fall over.

filmnumpty · Jun 17, 2014

This is a shot converted to B&W from some Fuji Velvia 50 and lab processed by Peak Imaging. Tremendous.
If I can't get my next home developed roll to come close to this I think I'll probably give up and get them to do it.

wblynch · Jun 20, 2014

My last roll of film I shook that tank like a cocktail shaker for the agitation and it came out one of the best I've ever done myself.

I'm over the gentle inversion thing.

StoneNYC · Jun 20, 2014

filmnumpty said:
This is a shot converted to B&W from some Fuji Velvia 50 and lab processed by Peak Imaging. Tremendous.
If I can't get my next home developed roll to come close to this I think I'll probably give up and get them to do it.

View attachment 89680

I fail to understand why did you convert it to B&W? I'm obviously missing something.

It does look nice, glad the Velvia50 didn't get ruined that's a precious commodity these days.

filmnumpty · Jun 20, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I fail to understand why did you convert it to B&W? I'm obviously missing something.

It does look nice, glad the Velvia50 didn't get ruined that's a precious commodity these days.

Because I only have one A12 back and I wanted this shot in B&W and didn't have any other shots to take in colour as the day was very muted.
I felt it was a waste of a shot to convert it but that's what I saw in my head and the aim for this shot so I never considered it to be anything other than B&W.

Xmas · Jun 20, 2014

If you are souping trix or some of the other Kodak mono films there is a lotta pink dye. If you let the film hang in daylight it will fade, but there is risk is you are not washing enough, I use two bath fix, rinse twice with full inversions, hypo clear full inversions for 60 seconds, and then the Ilford archival wash technique, you dont need to use a lot of water just dont fill the tank more then 90% full after the fix bath so you get a strong flow of water over the film as you invert and let it drain to other end of tank and then invert,...

StoneNYC · Jun 20, 2014

filmnumpty said:
Because I only have one A12 back and I wanted this shot in B&W and didn't have any other shots to take in colour as the day was very muted.
I felt it was a waste of a shot to convert it but that's what I saw in my head and the aim for this shot so I never considered it to be anything other than B&W.

View attachment 89854

This is an incredible shot, I'm all about B&W but this shot is amazing in color... Just saying I think this is better in color, wish I had a shot like this....

Rewashing Film - Portra 160, Tri-X 400, Fuji Acros

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