Rewash to remove water drying marks (advice requested)

[Ashfaque]

Well, it seems there are lots of drying marks and a few dark stains near the film rebate in two frames of Arista Premium 400 (24 exp. roll). I used SPUR Acurol-N at 1+35 (, i.e., 7ml + 243ml = 250 ml). I fixed the film for 3 minutes. I saw a few spots on some frames too, but not so sure about them . Sorry I still don't have a scanner with me. I don't think I still know enough on 'how to read from the negatives'. Could the stains be caused by relatively less fixing time?

Here is the flow chart (all done at 20 degree C):
(1) Jobo 1510 Tank (250 ml liquid) and no pre-soaking done
(2) Developer: SPUR Acurol-N at 1+35 dilution => 7ml + 243ml = 250 ml for 15 minutes (as per Acurol-N development sheet)
- with agitation method: 30 sec. continuously & twice in every 2 minutes thereafter (as per SPUR development sheet)
(3) Fotospeed SB50 (Odourless Stopbath): 30 secs of continuous agitation
(4) Tetenal Superfix Odourless: 3 minutes with similar agitation scheme like development stage (30 secs + twice every two minutes thereafter)
(5) Washing Stage: I used tap water only in this stage.
- Wash method: 1 minute continuous agiation + (two minutes of cont. agitation with new water) x 8 times.
(6) Tetenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic (wetting agent stage with DW): 1 minute continuous agitation, but very very slowly to minimise the bubbles. I was very careful with the proportion - so much so that I used a insulin syringe to get around 0.70 ml of wetting agent (1:400)!
(7) Drying for at least 16 hours

BTW, I noticed a very slight pink hue near the film rebate. However, since reading (there was a url link here which no longer exists), I'm thinking that it, in itself, is not a sign of less fixing time or using an exhausted fixer. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Another question: How should I go about rewashing the film? My tank and film spiral are all dried and ready. Should I pre-soak the film in DW before washing 9 times. Should I use more or less wetting agent this time? Anything else I am forgetting? Please advise

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[Xmas]

If the stains are greenish colour they are probable inadequate fix time or exhausted fix.

Try five minutes fix next time.

Drying marks are normally on the base (shiny side) and white.

Ilford suggest a squeegee and I find that necessary as there are only 200 chalk streams on the planet and I live less than three miles from two of them.

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/aboutus/page.asp?n=31

Unless the shots are valuable Id just rewash them, to remove drying marks.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Jobo strongly recommends that a wetting agent or surfactant such as Tetenal Mirasol 2000 Antistatic or PhotoFlo should not be used in Jobo tanks and drums. Rather remove the film and use the wetting agents in another container.

I too would recommend fixing for a longer time period on the order of 5 to 10 minutes.

 

[Ashfaque]

Michael, Xmas and Sirius: Thanks a lot for your help.

Xmas: I don't see any greenish hue/stain. But I'll refix the roll. I don't have a squeegee. I don't trust my fingers that much. So I'll leave it hang dry and hopefully will be fine.

Sirius: I saw Jobo's instruction about taking the reel out and do the wetting agent thingy. I didn't realise that it was vital. Thanks for pointing it out. BTW, I took that washing and wetting agent washing/agitation scheme from the technical sheets of Rollei RPX film series.

In summary, here is what I'll do now to refix and wash the film roll:
(1) Fixing: 5 minutes with 10 seconds of agitation (with inversion) in every 30 seconds
(2) Water washing: 1 minute continuous agitation + (two minutes of cont. agitation with new water) x 8 times.
(3) Taking the film out of the Jobo tank
(4) Wetting agent: 1 minute immersion in the DW+wetting agent solution

Is that ok?

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[Sirius Glass]

In summary, here is what I'll do now to refix and wash the film roll:
(1) Fixing: 5 minutes with 10 seconds of agitation (with inversion) in every 30 seconds
(2) Water washing: 1 minute continuous agitation + (two minutes of cont. agitation with new water) x 8 times.
(3) Taking the film out of the Jobo tank
(4) Wetting agent: 1 minute immersion in the DW+wetting agent solution

Is that ok?

Yes

 

[Christopher Walrath]

I read above your three minutes of fix and thought that very inadequate as well. I think five minutes would be a very good start.

Tow general rules of thumb.

First, fix for twice the amount of time it takes for the film to clear. After three minutes of fix, pull the film from the tank for a quick inspection. If it is cleared (you can see through the film where the undeveloped silver has been rinsed away) then you know that six minutes is the most you will need. It should be cleared by then. If not then the fixer is in all likelihood exhausted or outdated, ineffectual to say the least.

Second. You cannot OVER AGITATE your fix. Be generous on your agitation during fixing. Do not under agitate. Reading your planned changes, I think that will work for certain.

 

[R.Gould]

Fixing could be your problem,3 minutes is fine with fixer at 1/4(the Tetenal dilution for film), as far as agitation during fixing is concerned, I agitate for the first minute, then just leave it stand for the next 2 minutes, I have done that for at least 30 years of film developing and it has never been a problem, The main thing is never over use your fixer, I use my fixer 8 times, that may be 8 films in total or more if I develop 2 films at a time, then discard the fixer, then wash the film, I wash under running water for 20 to 30 minutes, then a final rinse in wetting agent, If it is 120 film I just shake the reel and hang the film up to dry, no problem with drying marks, but with 35mm I find you need to wipe the film to avoid drying marks, Never use a film wiper, or your fingers, take a sheet of kitchen towel, fold it and wipe the BACK, Shiny side, of the film 3 times, and leave, I have been following this method for at least 30 years and never get drying marks, and avoid scratches/marks on the emulsion side of the film, but on no account touch the emulsion,dull, side of the film while it is wet, some films are very delicate and mark easily when wet, try the above and you should be fine.One other thing, for washing try the Ilford method, that is, water at 20, fill tank invert 5 times, empty and refill with water, invert 10 times, empty and refill and invert 20 times, empty and I like to refill and invert 40 times, empty, invert slowly, and film is washed, the wetting agent for 30 sec soak, hang, wipe as above for 35mm, shake and hang for 120 and job done

 

[Photo Engineer]

If they are indeed water drying marks, these are often difficult to remove. If it is fixer stain, you can remove it as described above.

Best of luck.

PE

 

[Ashfaque]

Christopher, Gould and Ron: Thanks a lot for your advices too. They'll definitely help me to improve my technique.

I just finished doing it. I'm a bit sleepy atm, but I no longer see those tiny black stains near the film rebate and that very light pink hue. Hopefully there won't be any drying marks this time either.

Bests,
Ashfaque

 

[Christopher Walrath]

Get some sleep. Hope it has turned out well.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Christopher, Gould and Ron: Thanks a lot for your advices too. They'll definitely help me to improve my technique.

I just finished doing it. I'm a bit sleepy atm, but I no longer see those tiny black stains near the film rebate and that very light pink hue. Hopefully there won't be any drying marks this time either.

Bests,
Ashfaque

The pink means that more fixing time is needed.

 

[Ashfaque]

Hello everyone,

I don't see any dry marks now. I'll still leave it hanging for few more hours before cutting them.

Just some minute details (in case someone is interested):
- I opened the Jobo 1501 Film Reel. The film was standing on one part of the reel.
- I then slowly dropped film (hold the reel part) into the wetting agent (1+400) solution.
- After about 30 seconds, I gently pulled one end of the film (where there was no image). After pulling it further I got hold of the other end.
- Then I did the seesaw thingy (hold both ends of the film) very slowly for few seconds
- The total wetting agent bath was around 60 seconds.
- Didn't use any my finger or anything else to wipe off the extra liquid after hanging the film

Now I need to make sure no one messes around in the bathroom!

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[MartinP]

Why not use the wetting agent in distilled water, instead of tap water? That removes one more source of 'stuff-that-dries-on-film'.

 

[Ashfaque]

Why not use the wetting agent in distilled water, instead of tap water? That removes one more source of 'stuff-that-dries-on-film'.

Hi Martin,

That's a good idea. I'm just trying to keep my cost down. However, if things get problematic, I'll definitely use DW for future development.

Bests,
Ashfaque

 

[MartinP]

No, you usually only need it for the final rinse.

Also, if you have made up any of the processing chemicals from powder, or if any of them are re-used, then filter them before use. A small plug of good grade cotton-wool in a funnel will be fine, if you let a funnel full of clean water go through before filtering anything.

 

[Ashfaque]

No, you usually only need it for the final rinse.

Also, if you have made up any of the processing chemicals from powder, or if any of them are re-used, then filter them before use. A small plug of good grade cotton-wool in a funnel will be fine, if you let a funnel full of clean water go through before filtering anything.

Yes, I use DW for the wetting agent step.

Thanks for cotton-wool idea for filtering. Should I use same method for Tetenal Superfix Odourless (alkaline fixer) and stop bath - or just developers? Also what about coffee filter papers?

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[Too Many Cameras]

Ash, one thing I do with my most important negatives (4X5, typically) is to rinse them is distilled water once after the wash cycle. I let them sit for about 20 seconds before draining them. The distilled water dissolves remaining chemicals and residue well and then leaves very little behind when it's drained.

David

 

[MattKing]

Hello everyone,

I don't see any dry marks now. I'll still leave it hanging for few more hours before cutting them.

Just some minute details (in case someone is interested):
- I opened the Jobo 1501 Film Reel. The film was standing on one part of the reel.
- I then slowly dropped film (hold the reel part) into the wetting agent (1+400) solution.
- After about 30 seconds, I gently pulled one end of the film (where there was no image). After pulling it further I got hold of the other end.
- Then I did the seesaw thingy (hold both ends of the film) very slowly for few seconds
- The total wetting agent bath was around 60 seconds.
- Didn't use any my finger or anything else to wipe off the extra liquid after hanging the film

Now I need to make sure no one messes around in the bathroom!

Bests,

Ashfaque

Excellent.

You can wipe the extra liquid off the ends of the film, where there is no image. Also, if you run your fingers along each edge of the film (not the emulsion or base) it helps break the surface tension and drain a fair bit of the excess liquid.

Just be sure to use clean hands, dipped first in the wetting agent.

 

[Ashfaque]

Matt: Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I'll definitely wipe the water off the non-image areas and break the surface tension from the edges (i.e, film rebate) next time as you've recommended.

Bests,

Ashfaque

 

[MattKing]

Matt: Thanks for the advice and encouragement. I'll definitely wipe the water off the non-image areas and break the surface tension from the edges (i.e, film rebate) next time as you've recommended.

Bests,

Ashfaque

Not even the rebate - the edge itself.

Glad to be of help.

 

[Ashfaque]

Oops! Thanks Matt.

Bests,
Ashfaque