Reverse engineering a developer?

[Domin]

I've been using that paper developer since I started printing. Its almost only paper developer I ever used. Its cheap (actually the cheapest one here), fast working and keeps well.

I'm starting to think about mixing developers from scratch to get more control but also I'd like to start not far from what I know and I'm used to.

Is it possible for me to formulate at least similar developer? I don't mind some reading and experimenting.

It's two part powder and MSDS says it contains hydroquinone and phenidone with some percent ranges.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Tell us the developer you've been using, and I'm sure someone here has an idea of how it's formulated.

 

[gainer]

Phenidone,ascorbic acid and hydroquinone are soluble in propylene glycol. The remaining ingredients will be an alkali and either sodium or potassium sulfite, which keep quite well in water solution. The alkali will be eiher sodium or potassium carbonate for most purposes. If I were doing this experiment, I would make a solution of phenidone and ascorbic acid in glycol and a solution of potassium carbonate in water. If you will search for PC-Glycol in APUG, you will find several formula that were designed for film, but that could also be used for paper with some experimenting to find best ratios. That is the best I can do "off the top of my head." Others may chip in.

 

[Domin]

The name is unlikely to ring a bell. It's made by local lab owner (he's also a printer).

Its powder developer, two bags. Big and small one.
For simplicity of use I guess its advised to be dissolved in 5 liters of water at 25-30C, yielding about 5,1 l of dev.

Label says:
"contains:
95-100% hydroquinone
1-5% phenidone (actually its chemical name)"

I don't know how to understand that. That's no recipe for a developer. It might refer just to smaller bag or just to constituents which have to be mentioned.

Big one contains white powder with some crystalline sheen to it. It looks fairly uniform to my untrained eye.
The small one *suprise* also contains whitish powder. One can see some crystals of roughly cylindrical shape. But there is also some powder to fine to see its shape.

The big one is to be completely dissolved (271g of chemicals in 5l of water) before dissolving the small one. Both take some time to dissolve completely, I'd say 10-15mins at 25-30C.

Fresh solution is gray with some pink tinge. There is always some light colored precipitate which settles rather slowly and has never bothered me much.

pH of fresh solution is about 10 (measured by indicator paper).

 

[Photo Engineer]

Does it fizz when added to acetic acid stop bath?

As a side note to Patrick, I would generally not use Ascorbic Acid for a print developer.

PE

 

[Domin]

Does it fizz when added to acetic acid stop bath?
PE

No. There is no visible or audible reaction to either acetic or citric stop bath. If you mean reaction to the developer solution.

 

[Anscojohn]

Were I in your situation, I would just follow a standard recipe from Ilford for a phenidone-based paper developer. Experiment from there.

 

[olehjalmar]

Wasn't the developing agent in Agfa Neutol Plus mainly ascorbic acid?

Does it fizz when added to acetic acid stop bath?

As a side note to Patrick, I would generally not use Ascorbic Acid for a print developer.

PE

 

[Ian Grant]

Most of the Eastern European PQ developers are based on the formulae Ilford published in the 1950's/60's, at one time Ilford were almost certainly selling Phenidone to other photo-chemistry manufacturers and their PQ formulae where included in Polish photo books.

Your best starting point is (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Bromophen the current Ilford powder developer is similar.

Ian

 

[Christiaan Phleger]

Yeah, why not use Ascorbic Acid?

 

[Photo Engineer]

I generally do not think of AA as a paper developing agent, rather as a film developing agent. I guess it may be habit, but most of the manufacturers seem to agree. It can be used, but seems to me to be slower and has less synergy with other developing agents. IDK, maybe it is the stability issue. Unless you play tricks with the formula, it can die suddenly in working solutions.

PE

 

[gainer]

Hydroquinone is also soluble in propylene glycol, so it could be used in place of ascorbic acid. Papers are usually developed by inspection. If inspection does not meet expectation, try the other. Just make small batches until you get what you want. The learning is worth the experimentation required to get it. One person's failure may be another's success. One artist can live "high on the hog" from sales of photographically realistic paintings of beer cans and another can live on the sales of surrealistic photos of beer cans.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Ryuji suggests a print developer DS-14 containing ascorbic acid but with the preservative salicylic acid which complexes iron and slows the oxidation of ascorbate in the working solution.
Dead Link Removed
Oxidation in the working solution seems to be the reason ascorbate is not as popular as hydroquinone,not many users have salicylic acid.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

Perhaps someone has a formula for Ilford Bromophen that would be a good place to try. (Ian?)

Make some Bromophen if we can get a formula or buy some Bromophen if you can and see if the results are close, and if not, let's take it from there.

 

[Ian Grant]

Bromophen is very similar to ID-62, and I posted a link. The difference is that the packaged powder form has a small amount of Sodium Metabisulphite in Part A which helps preserve the developing agents in the packet, Kodak do the same with Microdol-X, but it's not required if made up as a liquid.

Ilford's Liquid developers differ in the choice of Alkali using Potassium Carbonatew & Sodium (or Potassium) Hydroxide instead of just Sodium Carbonate, this allows more concentrated solutions to be made up, in addition some now use Dimezone instead of Phenidone.

Ian

 

[gainer]

Ryuji suggests a print developer DS-14 containing ascorbic acid but with the preservative salicylic acid which complexes iron and slows the oxidation of ascorbate in the working solution.
Dead Link Removed
Oxidation in the working solution seems to be the reason ascorbate is not as popular as hydroquinone,not many users have salicylic acid.

Perhaps an aspirin a day would keep the oxidation away.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Perhaps it might with a bit of work.In theory salicylic acid can be made by hydrolysis of asprin with a strong acid or base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylic_acid

 

[gainer]

Come to think of it, salycilic acid in solution is available at drugstores as treatment for athlete's foot and other fungi.

 

[Alan Johnson]

The product Duofilm might work to preserve ascorbate working solution.
http://hazard.com/msds/f2/bhj/bhjth.html

 

[gainer]

Also, my father told me that as a child he was taught to chew a willow twig as cure for headache and muscle pains. His ancestors knew this fact before Wikipedia was born.

 

[Anscojohn]

Also, my father told me that as a child he was taught to chew a willow twig as cure for headache and muscle pains. His ancestors knew this fact before Wikipedia was born.

******************

Aha. Stir the developer solution with a willow twig!!!

 

[Photo Engineer]

American Indians used willow as a pain reducing medication.

OTOH, solutions of Salicylic Acid can take the hide off of an Elephant. The mixture mentioned above is used in the US as Compound W, a wart remover. It is very corrosive to skin.

PE

 

[thisismyname09]

The name is unlikely to ring a bell. It's made by local lab owner (he's also a printer).

Have you tried asking him what the formula is?

 

[Domin]

Have you tried asking him what the formula is?

I remember asking him some question about the formula. I wasn't asking for the whole formula just about some ingredient and he sounded very vague.

 

[argentic]

Domin,

Your description isn't complete enough to "guess" much about the formula. And your lab owner probably just mixes it from some known formula too.

I wouldn't try to reverse engineer your developer. Instead, get the darkroom cookbook. Look at all the properties of the developer you have, and try to find a formula in there that is similar. You say it is pH 10 and hydrochinon+phenidone based? That already excludes many formulas. Is it a cool, warm or neutral working developer? Does it have long or short shelf life. etc.

Or just don't bother, start with a bromophen/dektol like formula and see if that pleases you. If not, find a cooler or warmer toned developer formula. There are many simple formulas that could replace the developer you have.