Reversal RA, not entirely successful

Domin · Mar 1, 2008

I spent some time trying to get reversal ra process. My success is rather limited.

I got image, but I cannot get white. Color balance is worse than I expected. The maximum 130y/130m on my Durst cls301 head is not enough to get rid of cyan cast. When added amber lighting gel I got neutral grays but then other colors were really off, greens and blues very dark, and all reds, yellows and even light magenta turned muddy red-brown. I could live with that as I did not expect accurate colors, but the lack of clear white is a problem. While I can get it neutral it's gray at best. To get white I need massive overexposure which ruins the rest of image. Overall contrast is low, almost all prints were made from rather contrasty slide of self made crude test chart.

All I know about my b&w developer is that its mostly hydroquinone with some phenidone. I prolonged time from standard 1min to 3mins. The developer made by local b&w lab/shop owner. I've used it for years now for prints. I don't know how secret is the formula. I'll going to ask him next week. At this point I didn't bother to get dektol as I had impression that PE used it not for unique properties but because it was his standard b&w print dev.

For RA I use two bath tetenal kit in trays.

The paper is Supra Endura III stored in room temperature for about 2 years.

I got some mottle. I've noted that mottle depends mostly on color. The worst is on light and mid cyan, there is some in blues, greens and a bit in reds. Its soft and big. Yellows and to lesser extent mageta gives pronounced grain.

Before trying reversal I tested paper and color kit on portra 160VC negative. The filter pack was about 80y 10m but I can compare the print only to digital print from a frontier which I naturally contrastier and more saturated.

Now I wonder what went wrong. Is it bw dev, dated paper which lost its red sensivity and is not correctable due to color crossover or is it the process itself and its matter of choosing images which would look ok with this problems.

I can post some scans later if it might be of any help of interest to someone. Just have to get my atrocious flatbed scanner from basement.

glbeas · Mar 2, 2008

The phenidone in the developer my be the problem. Get the dektol, wild cards like your develper are no help for you to learn with.

David Grenet · Mar 2, 2008

Domin said:
To get white I need massive overexposure which ruins the rest of image.

This goes with the territory I think... I actually couldn't get white at all with the box of Endura I had (I even tried one sheet fogged in room light...)

When you say 'ruins the rest of [the] image' do you still get black? If you do I'd say there probably isn't much you can do (at least with your current chemistry.) I have read that adding a very small amount (0.5 - 1 g/L) of Sodium Sulfite to the colour dev can reduce contrast so maybe if you expose to get a good white and try this it will help. I haven't tried it myself (yet).

I think the contrasty test slide probably doesn't help and maybe get some Dektol (it's cheap after all). Photo Engineer is the guru on this so he may be able to give a judgment on whether your developer is any good for this process. If it has a high sulfite content it won't work...

My (limited) experience suggests that this process is only good for certain images so try some real scenes and see if they work.

Oh, and post your results!

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2008

This process is good for only low key results as the image and color saturation is higher than a regular RA process.

I have results from literally all over the world from people who have tried this process. I can say that for the most part, Fuji papers are hit and miss and Supra III and older will not work at all. I used Supra Endura and Dektol 1:3 for 2 minutes. I have results from many different first developers that seem to work.

The exposure I used indicated that the paper was about 1 stop slower and required higher magenta filtration by about 50 M.

I'm not sure what process you have used. I can say that no one who has sent me any images has used a Tetenal kit. We have all used Kodak or Fuji chemistry.

Could you please post the process cycle information? Thanks.

PE

nworth · Mar 2, 2008

I've also tried reversing RA-4 paper with only limited results. My process was Dektol, stop, reversal exposure, RA-4 process. The results were always too blue to work with, even with filtration changes. I tried adding various amounts of thiocyanate to the Dektol. It did change things for the better, but not enough. Color balance has really been a problem doing reversal with RA-4 materials. (I used Kodak Supra - before the Endura version - and Fuji Crystal Archive II papers.)

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2008

Yes, the Supra before Endura was Supra III. I could not get that paper to work. And, the CA II papers were hit and miss.

I have posted a straight scan of a slide and the cross processed print result here before. It was done on Endura with the process in the same post.

PE

glbeas · Mar 2, 2008

If you can't get enough m-y filtration to get rid of the cyan then maybe you should give the additive process a try. Balance is achieved by simply adding more time to one color or another.

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2008

Gary;

Since there is no Supra Endura III AFAIK, only a Supra III which does not work, and the paper is somewhat old, IDK what to think. I have a whole notebook filled with keepers and another one filled with losers. But the losers span a huge gamut of paper and process variations including use of the E6 reversal bath and a number of other variations.

PE

Domin · Mar 3, 2008

First, I was Supra III paper. I've done first tests on 12cm wide roll of Supra Endura and than switched to cut 20x25cm Supra III because it was bigger and results at first were very similar.

Then Endura and III mysteriously merged in my mind. So its probably the paper. Ill try some another. I have a box of Ultra II, refrigerated until last autumn. Any evidence that it works or not?

If you can't get enough m-y filtration to get rid of the cyan then maybe you should give the additive process a try. Balance is achieved by simply adding more time to one color or another.

Would it work with color head or do I need RGB filters?

Could you please post the process cycle information? Thanks.

My process was at room temperature (about 21-24 C, it is not very stable in my room).

3-4 min b&w developer. I've talked with the shop owner, he says its his own formula hydroquinone - phenidone but nothing out of ordinary. When I asked about Dektol he said that his developer gives a bit less contrast but in a color reversal process small differences in formula may make a big one in print.

Stop bath, about 30s.

Exposure while wash, 2-3min

Then RA in Tetenal amateur room temperature kit

This goes with the territory I think... I actually couldn't get white at all with the box of Endura I had (I even tried one sheet fogged in room light...)

When you say 'ruins the rest of [the] image' do you still get black? If you do I'd say there probably isn't much you can do (at least with your current chemistry.) I have read that adding a very small amount (0.5 - 1 g/L) of Sodium Sulfite to the colour dev can reduce contrast so maybe if you expose to get a good white and try this it will help. I haven't tried it myself (yet).

I meant that to get some white I need so much exposure that there is no black and the other colors get bleak and unsaturated. Actually they get ugly before white becomes white.

From what I see contrast rather too low than too high but it might be because of the cyan fog I couldn't get rid off.

I've scanned some prints but my scanner is really atrocious and I'm not sure if the images are really relevant.

Left image: top left has 120y 100m, the rest is at 120y 40m and some variations in all directions.

Right image 80y 40m and additional amber lightning gel. The top left white area has actually cyan cast in some parts and is white in other. I exposed it heavily but unevenly with a torch. Areas that look white on scan are not white on prints.

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2008

Dektol at 1:3 has a rather low level of sulfite. You have to have a very active developer for the first developer and low solvent to get the right dmin and dmax.

PE

Domin · Mar 3, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Dektol at 1:3 has a rather low level of sulfite. You have to have a very active developer for the first developer and low solvent to get the right dmin and dmax.

PE

Thanks, now I know what to ask. Did you or anyone tested Ultra II?

glbeas · Mar 3, 2008

Domin said:
Would it work with color head or do I need RGB filters?

Maybe if you were to use two at a time at max filtration, like m/y maxed for red, c/m for blue and c/y for green. It normally uses color separation filters.
If you have access to one, the Minolta 45A color head is an additive unit with three filtered flashtubes firing for differing times to create your filter pack. It's a PIA to use if you are accustomed to subtractive printing.

It wouldn't hurt to try it with your color head if you have time and paper. Theres no guarantee that will correct the problem.

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2008

Endura Ultra is probably the only one that will work this way. There was a big change in emulsions from all of the numbered Supra and Ultra papers to the Endura types. Even with Endura, I have seen huge speed shifts from batch to batch in magenta (~20 - 30M) which are not there in the normal negative process. I know the reason chemically and this is usually what is seen with Fuji CA in most cases.

You are somehow not developing all of the cyan layer silver in the first developer. If you do not, then whites will be cyan. If you can't get a black black, then either the first developer is fogging the paper, or the color developer is too weak.

PE

glbeas · Mar 3, 2008

PE, the cyan layer is the bottom most layer, right? Could the too dilute Dektol be exhausting before it can penetrate to the lower level and be causing this?

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2008

Gary;

The cyan is at the bottom but is finer grained and lower in silver than the yellow on top, so it is quite a complex balance. IDK all of the reasons, but I know that people in the US, OZ and several Scandinavian countries have sent me samples of their prints or scans done on Endura with a variety of first developers.

I'm sure that the halide balance in the developer has something to do with this as well, as I have run halide series of Br and Cl in scratch mixed Dektol. I can say that the posted samples look far contrastier than any of my prints.

Let me pick one out with a checker and scan it and post it.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2008

Test charts

Here are 4 pictures. The check in each pair iis from a 4x5 internegative made from an E6 transparency and printed on Endura in RA chemistry. The experiments are direct prints on Endura in a cross process from the 4x5 transparency.

The Girl on couch is pretty good, but I'm not happy with the color balance of the Girl in the lab. The wall is supposed to be gray. You can see that the neutral scale is not perfect in any of these. My home made internegatives are not perfect, being made on Portra VC, but in the absence of the real internegative film, it is the best I can do.

BTW, these are Kodak Girl pictures of some of the 'unknown' Kodak Girls. I don't have ownership of these so I cannot show the entire pictures and faces. These are 'gifts' from old friends saved from a trash can many many years ago.

PE

glbeas · Mar 3, 2008

Pretty interesting, thanks! So the cyan layer has a steeper curve than the other two and makes the gray turn blue when the other colors balance out? Would this have to do with the paper being designed for printing with the orange mask in the negative?

Photo Engineer · Mar 3, 2008

Well, first off the cyan layer does not have a steep curve in either negative or reversal processing. However all layers suffer from a bit of crossover that varies with process and paper batch in the cross process. And, since cyan is on the bottom, you have to insure that it is 'well done' to get white whites, but you have to do it in such a way that it does not cause a lot of crossover.

The girl in lab is not an example of crossover, but rather is one of imperfect color balance. The girl on couch is more of an example of crossover even though it looks better. So, depending on scene you can get a variety of results. You can see that the flesh tones are pretty close in the two on the left, but the curtains don't match at all. If you want a better example, the Inspiration Point pair I posted previously is probably the best comparison.

A 16x20 of that one is on the wall here. Also, in the gallery are some cross processed examples.

PE

David Grenet · Mar 3, 2008

Thanks for the examples and explanation PE - very interesting!

Photo Engineer · Mar 4, 2008

Gary and everyone;

My apologies. I could tell where my head was, but I would rather not. The cyan layer is on the bottom in film, but on TOP in paper. The rest of my answer stands. Since the cyan is on the top, you have to be very careful of it and due to diffusion, you have to be sure that the bottom layer is developed properly as well.

So, a silver halide solvent in the first developer (even too much sulfite), can lower silver dmax, leading to cyanish highlights, and fog in the first developer can lead to low dmax. You have to get things right in the first developer.

Also, reinspecting my prints above, the one on the left suffers from just crossover, but balance is correct. The one on the right has bad balance, but also has about the same level of crossover as the one on the left.

My apologies for any confusion.

PE

glbeas · Mar 4, 2008

Cyan on top? <much confusion!!!> How does that work? Is the blue sensitive layer on the bottom as well? Is there a yellow filter layer in the stack somewhere?
Now I'm lost....

Photo Engineer · Mar 4, 2008

Gary;

Color paper has the layer order C/IL+UV/M/IL/Y/Support. Film has the layer order Y/CLS/M/IL/C/Support. In film the 3 layers have the same speed, but in paper, the yellow(blue) layer is about ISO 100 and the Cyan(red) is about ISO 25. When balanced with a red filter (50R) all three layers match up at a speed of about ISO 25 or about the speed of a B&W paper.

The speed shifts are used, among other things, to put the yellow on the bottom to protect it from oxidation and UV if it were on top. When you add the 50R, all layers match and the filtration acts like the CLS layer in film.

PE

glbeas · Mar 4, 2008

Wow, the more I learn the less I know. Thanks PE.

Reversal RA, not entirely successful

Domin

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